1986 190E 2.3-16 Chain Guide Rail Replacement - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

reinier · #76 06-17-2007, 04:17 PM

Can you tell something more about 'remanufacturing' the cam sprockets of a 2.3-16.
Have one still lying around (put in a OM603 turbo in the car) which has worn sprockets.

Checked the price, and indeed, about 250 euro or more a piece...

Have a industrial lathe in my shop, so any pictures, thoughts or makes of universal sprockets are welcome!

JimSmith · #77 06-17-2007, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinker

In regards to the pin height. The ones I received from the dealer were too long. I tapped them in until they bottomed and realized they would not allow the front cover to torque down. I just got out the good ole Dremel and eyed it and cut it square, leaving enough to fit into the recesses in the front cover.

Tinker

Tinker,

We trial fit the front cover yesterday, after putting the connecting rod bearings in, thinking we would be ready to start the front cover reassembly and installation until we hit the problem with the bearing for the distributor drive sprocket and gear assembly. Anyway, while trial fitting we found we only had to cut one of the pins back as the front cover has a cast-in feature in way of the lower pin that interferes with the as delivered length. We covered everything up and put an electrical tape wrap at the surface we wanted to cut, and used a Dremel cut off wheel as you suggested. Worked fine. Cover fits no problems. Thanks for the heads up. Jim

JimSmith · #78 06-17-2007, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuni959

/subscribe

Sounds like you have quite a task at hand Jim! I spent a good hour reading over this thread. I am debating weather or not to rebuild the 16v engine that i have in parts sitting here...

Well this thread came up during a search for Front and rear main seal replacements, but i guess your not to that step yet. Oh well, on with the search... Best of luck to you, and sorry about your dog. We had to put our Golden down awhile back due to some nasty seizures.

Actually, the work itself has been relatively straight forward, but without the help of Racing in this case, we would have been intimidated by the scope growth, likely enough to have had some serious second thoughts. As it was, digging into the connecting rod bearings, which was a key positive sequence based on the condition of the number 1 and number 2 cylinder bearings, is something we would never have thought to do on our own, and then without some serious encouragement, it was something we likely would have talked ourselves out of, on our own.

We have become somewhat spoiled by Racing's willingness to help us with advice and technical guidance throughout this task- he has been great encouragement when we were shell shocked by some discovery during disassembly. Hopefully if you get into rebuilding your engine, Racing or someone else will step up if and when you need help.

To your specific question; we are not looking to change the rear seal, but have already knocked the front seal out of the front cover and pressed the new front seal into the cover. If there is something in particular you are interested in I will try to take some extra photos and notes to post. I do not think you will be looking to take the front cover off just to change the seal, as I do not think that is likely absolutely necessary. But if the engine is in pieces already, might as well take the front cover off. It makes knocking the old seal out pretty straight forward.

If you have the engine out of the car, I would have no hesitation rebuilding the entire engine, given some assistance in the way of "virtual experience" from this site when you need a hint or encouraging word. Our greatest hinderance is we have nowhere to work on the entire engine if we took it out of the car, and we have no lift or cherry picker to yank it out either. Plenty of people have noted we should be able to just lift the block out now, but we would have to put a whole engine back in, and that would require an engine hoist and a place to locate it and the engine....not available on the unpaved, gravel covered part of the parking lot we are using.

Overall the experience has been mostly enjoyable, for me especially since I am doing this with my son, who has taken on doing most of the grunt work. It is also particularly rewarding to see him learning more about engine design and assembly practices than nearly any kids he knows of the same age that are also in college earning an engineering degree. There is nothing better than a good technical understanding of the principles of how things work that is backed up with solid personal, practical experience tearing an engine down, diagnosing the parts and rebuilding the machine. Combining that with joining this community, made up of people with vastly different backgrounds from around the world, and the experience is truly unique.

Without sounding too much like a groupie or something, the help we get here has been vital, and so it is greatly appreciated. Guys like Racing with broad and deep experience with this engine taking time to check in every day and send us, the novices on the block, a note to show they are following our progress is really rewarding even when we are not stuck on something. It is a small world, people who have an interest in these unique vehicles and I am amazed at how the internet has been used to share experiences with this common interest. So, jump in. Jim

Racing · #79 06-18-2007, 04:19 AM

Jim.
In short.
Thank you.I´m ever so happy to be of assistance,and just hope that what i write is of help to you guys.

Reiner.
It´s as easy as seeking a supplier of industrial gears and chains up.
These WILL have 3/8" split 36 cog gears on tap.I guarantee.(A very common type)
However,they can also be had in a variety of "grades",and to stick with the merc idea- don´t pick a grade that´s to tough.

Having the pts at the lathe it soon becomes evident what needs to be done.
You simply put the OEM stub into the lathe and cut the gear part of it off after having been extremely anal about clocking the axle between the spindle and the pinol.
Then cut a recess in the OEM stub for the new gear to rest on,and cut the new gear accordingly to fit over said recess.
Idea is to put the cut so the OEM cam bolt holes will pull the halves together,and if need be take the TIG to it.

So what´s the reward?
That the industry gears are about 10 bux a pop.
Thats what.
Axles and bearing surfaces seldom wear by any appreciable amount.

Btw.
This works like a charm for the chain as well.
When you study the chain a little-as we did-it soon becomes evident that the OEM choice of chain is the weakest/softest POS they could dig up.
Reason for this was obviously that a soft chain will run more silent than a hardened one in operation.
What we´ve also found out is that the OEM ones will stretch beyond belief when the engine starts to get rev happy(Mine for instance put out approx 3 times the power of the stocker by now),and after som minor detective work it turned out that merc did NOT use the OEM ones in racing.
The "DTM" specials tho..as usual..are an arm and a leg,and what people to know chains better than the ones that spend all day applying chains for the industry.
Just so happens that i´m an engineer,and one of my friends happen to work for a larger mech shop that specializes in...you guessed it.
After talking it over for a number of hours with one of their application engineers we settled for the most brute hardened chain the japanese company Tsubaki delivers in 3/8" split.(Tsubaki is a quality supplier of chains)
Beuty is that this balls to the walls chain is approx 30 bux....vs the claimed "DTM" specials..that´ll set you back along the lines of 600..

Racing · #80 06-18-2007, 04:29 AM

250 euros is for the simplex ones.
The duplex ones are about 2,5 times that.
..and...can be treated accordingly.
If you ask me Merc should be ashamed of their pricing of some of the pts.

Altho we admittedly have to modify them,we´ve opted to use forged Mahle pistons for the Volvo B23ET engine.
Thing is..
These slugs-which are just as on par as the OEM ones for the 16V...you get 4 of those for the price of 1 and a half Merc slug.
Then again...sure..we have to take them to the lathe to make them fit compression height wise and indeed cut the valve cutouts in a bridgeport...none the less..
We get a slug that´s intended for turbo use-seing what we are developing and building at the moment.

Same goes for the valves.
I just don´t get it.
I´m all cool about making money,but there´s a BIG difference between making money and making money..overcharging for a given part is NOT cool in my book,and especially not so for parts for a by now 20 yr old car.
It´s pure folly,and if that´s the way merc wants to play it..no prob..i´ll just refrain from buying the parts from them and build my engines anyways.

JimSmith · #81 06-18-2007, 04:19 PM

Racing,

We are looking for a new distributor drive sprocket/gear assembly (I think it goes by the name "intermediate shaft" after speaking to the dealership today and then looking on this site). The one that came out of the car is as shown in the photos. The one this site is showing they say fits has a camshaft lobe-like blob hanging off the end with the bigger journal bearing diameter - the lobe would go into the cavity behind the bearing, which is probably big enough to fit it. I fished all the crud out of there yesterday with my fingers and shop rag, and didn't find this thing. I will go look again. I have copied the photo from this site and marked the end with the lobe we don't have on our intermediate shaft. If this is merely a generic photo and does not apply (like maybe on the model car this lobe is used for the lobe drives a vacuum pump or something? Like on a Diesel?) to the 190E 2.3-16, or has my car ejected this part somewhere in its past? Thanks,

Jim

Racing · #82 06-18-2007, 05:18 PM

Jim.
If your intermediate shaft isn´t extremely worn,don´t bother.
I have seen them with the teeth more or less gone-as in anihiliated.

But,as you ask.
The "lump" at the end of the shaft is to drive a fuelpump.
If you take a look at the block end you´ll notice a cover..and that cover is there to block off the hole for a pump.

JimSmith · #83 06-18-2007, 05:52 PM

Racing,

We concluded we needed to replace the intermediate shaft because the journal is so beat up on the end that goes into the block. It is probably more than 0.020 inches "wavy" in the axial direction, and has some pretty significant grooves in it. I may have confused you in my descriptions of all the parts and their condition. But, there is no way the existing shaft can be reused as resurfacing the journal will make the replacement bearing quite sloppy and loose, thus likely to fail again.

Sorry if I confused things by describing so many parts in one post. I was also concerned the bore in the block might be messed up since the bearing was nearly entirely gone, and obviously spinning in the bore. But the bore in the block seems fine.

Thanks for the quick response. Jim

reinier · #84 06-20-2007, 11:38 AM

@Racing:

Thank you for this info, and all the other info you've spread around on MB forums!

When I have time I'm gonna look into replacing the sprockets with industrial ones.

Ow, and I have sent you a PM

JimSmith · #85 06-20-2007, 01:15 PM

Racing,

The new "intermediate shaft" arrived and it has the extra lump on it to drive a fuel pump, which we do not have. I am curious about whether or not I can use this new part or need to find one without the lump on it. Will there be an unbalance with the lump and no fuel pump or is this an ok condition?

Still waiting for the new bearings (they were cheap so I ordered both of them to be sure and you made the removal and installation procedure sound pretty straight forward). One had to come from Germany. So the weekend will be busy if the parts show up.

Thanks again, Jim

Racing · #86 06-21-2007, 05:20 AM

Condition is absolutely OK.
Don´t worry.
Just go ahead and install the new shaft and bearings and be done with it Jim.

JimSmith · #87 06-23-2007, 08:20 PM

Racing,

Got the front cover back on, and letting it sit for the night while we examine the potential disaster we face.

The chain guide rail that fits above the intermediate shaft sprocket (the sprocket that drives the helical gear that meshes with the distributor shaft helical gear that we just replaced with the bearings in the front cover and block) appears to normally be fastened into the block just above the intermediate shaft by a screw or something. At any rate the whole assembly is gone and there is no screw head - it was apparently so smoothly ground off we didn't see it for what it was when the cover was off.

So, is it a threaded fastener, and if so, can I get the old one out and get the new one in without taking the front cover off again?

Thanks, Jim

JimSmith · #88 06-24-2007, 11:54 AM

Racing,

Upon further review, I think this early model (it is a 1985 190E 2.3-16 European model) has no guide rail in this position. All the other stuff that was ground off by the chain had obvious grinding marks on it. In this case the part I suspected last night might be a ground off fastener that held the tensioner bracket (pc 33 in the attached photo) it seems this is a pressed in plug. The surface finish is circular, like it was cut off in a lathe or some other machine tool, not by a chain grinding across and then through it at an angle.

If you look at the photo, the bracket, pc. 33, has two fastening locations, or seems to. There is no sign of any kind of fastener location, either a hole or a pin, for the second fastener for pc. 33 (by second I mean the one up and to the left, the "plug" with the circular finish marks I noted is just at or slightly above the "idler sprocket" labeled pc. 18b).

In addition there was no sign of the bracket in the oil pan or in the strainer.

So, my question is, do all of these engines have a guide rail (pc. 32) and bracket (pc. 33) just above the pc. 18b sprocket?

Thanks, Jim

Racing · #89 06-24-2007, 02:01 PM

Your thoughts are correct.
The early engines didn´t sport that chain guide,and to my knowledge the advent of it was a result of customer complaints of noise.
In essence they added the chain guide to quiet the chain down a bit.
This also goes for the chain guide between the cam sprockets,and in that case just a minor mod in form of a pair of waved washers behind the guides two pins-that it´s supported by.

My early turbo converted motor is an 85 just like yours,and that doesn´t hold the pts you mention either-nor did it from the factory.

Later engine that DO carry it has the bracket in itself out of welded sheet metal,and then the plastic chain guide inserted into a recess in said bracket from "above"(read-from the head)
Bracket is fastened to the block by a pin and this by interferance fit.

As far as i know you can even omit the bracket on the later engines as long as ou can live with the added "noise"(which to tell the truth really is minor ro say the least)

JimSmith · #90 06-24-2007, 02:31 PM

Thanks for the confirmation! We will proceed with the rest of the reassembly. In my despair I subscribed to the MB EPC service and got entirely lost as they make no mention of what parts applied to this engine (102 983 10 003 758) and what parts don't. The exploded view you get to, even when you use the VIN number and engine number is the same and shows all the parts. And when the part numbers have a description of the engine serial numbers they apply to, I can't figure out how to read the information. The list says something like "From engines serial numbers 102 983 01/05 ....., which I don't understand.

Thanks again, Jim