1986 190E 2.3-16 Chain Guide Rail Replacement - Page 7 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

JimSmith · #91 06-24-2007, 03:59 PM

Racing,

We used the MB black stuff to form a seal between the front cover and the block, which went quite well. We did not have the tool to dispense the stuff so it took a lot of muscle and there were some spots that were a little messy. Not at all like that photo on someone's website of this job where the goo looked like it was put in place one molecule at a time.

We have more than half the tube left and we are just finishing up the gasket surface preparation on the block and the oil pan. This spot takes a gasket and I was wondering if the black goo might help on the gasket to block seal where it has a seam at the back in way of the rear crank seal and in front in way of the front cover. Is this something to worry about or not? Thanks, Jim

chuni959 · #92 06-24-2007, 04:02 PM

i thought the same thing when i was putting my m103 together, and on all three m104 and and two 16v engines ive taken apart, there has been no sealant on the rear main seal flange. Just by looking at it, it would appear that the only spot oil can get out is at the bottom, and the oilpan gasket covers that

Racing · #93 06-24-2007, 04:21 PM

Nope Jim.
Simply put,put the tube of goo away.
You´re done with it.

JimSmith · #94 06-27-2007, 11:25 AM

Racing,

Here is an update. The front cover is on as noted earlier, the oil pan is on, although that turned out to be a genuine challenge. The tapped holes in the block were so full of crud we had to run a tap through them to get the running torque below the 7 ft-lbs. cited in the manual. On the rear, passenger side one of the 6mm thread tapped holes is a blind hole and I was not paying good attention, and I snapped the tap off in the hole. I could not get it out, so I made sure the tap was clear of the gasket and put a little of the black goo over the area on the pan and the block with my finger after cleaning it up good. There is a bigger, 8mm threaded hole near by so I hope I get the necessary clamping force to close the joint long term. I am sure the goo will seal it for a while.

Doing that job on your back is not easy. I know, taking the engine out would have been the best thing to do. I saw on another thread how someone did this with the engine upside down, and can say that would have been the way to do it. Just getting that flimsy gasket to stay put while pushing a fastener through the hole was driving me nuts.

The cylinder head is next, and we are going to assemble it and take the valve shim measurements tonight.

Thanks for the help, Jim

JimSmith · #95 07-05-2007, 12:38 AM

Racing,

Just an update.

We now need shims of the larger sizes to adjust the exhaust valves, and still need to order a few shims for the intakes. All this waiting for measurments and ordering parts and waiting for them is dragging this out a bit, but the engine is looking pretty good. We have ordered what we need for the intake and the exhaust shims and should have them before the weekend.

I also ordered those head bolts. I found them for about $3 apiece in quantities of 12. Lower prices for larger quantities but I don't need a bunch of extras. 75 ft.-lbs seems a bit low for a bolt that size. The MB parts call for some intermediate torque and then two 90 degree turns following the torque sequence in the manual. That, I believe gets more than 75 ft.-lbs. Can you confirm the torque number, or, alternatively, can I use the same torque sequence in the manual with these bolts?

Thanks, and we will keep you informed as we go. Jim

Racing · #96 07-05-2007, 02:58 AM

DO NOT use the torq speced in the manual for regular 12.9 classed ones!!!
I repeat-DO NOT!
You WILL break the heabolt holes out that way.
110 Nm(Or 10Kgm) does it.
Just have in mind that you need to retorq the head after a short while-and then in cool state.
On the other hand you need to give a lot of other nuts and bolts a go over anyways..like hedder nuts,intake bolts asf.
Tightening sequense is the same tho.

On a different note,i just took it on myself to be "nice" to m old ladys 16V.An 88 vintage.
We checked the entire drivetrain over.
Installed a H&R cupkit and fresh front shock points(upper out of rubber are always shot),installed new rear tires,fresh waterpump...
Fabbed an off road pipe for the exhaust and installed a 2.5-16 hedder(larger dimensions),followed up with a set of 2.5cams...and a stand alone...
All in 3 days so far

Dayum for a difference it made!!
The little ol engine has really come to life again!!

As we´re headed for the 25yr jamboree down in germany come this weekend i´m going to continue working on it today.Odd ends and bits left to do..

BenzMacX · #97 07-14-2007, 06:14 PM

Well, we did some more work on the car today, and the head will probably be going on tomorrow, however, we still do not have the correct shims as they are coming from Germany. They will hopefully get here early next week.

We cleaned out the cylinders and the Pistons. We also took the oil cooler off and ran gas through it, and it seems as though there were no aluminum chips in it as none came out, so we will probably use the same one, as a new one is $330.

This car came with out an emission system and has been sneaking past ever since it was purchased and "Federalized" with only a rigged on cat. I am buying a new stainless performance exhaust system for it when I am done and was going to attempt to install an O2 sensor, however it seems as though it is much more complicated than we originally anticipated. The manual that we have (American '86 16v) does not match up the correct pin outs of the ECU so I don't know if I could just make a few solder connections to rig up my O2 sensor. Do you know if this is possible?

We are also now considering a true electronic fuel injection system, however, I am running out of funding and time for this year, so I probably won't get around to actually doing anything until next summer. None the less I was wondering if you had any recommendations, hints tips or anything that I should know about this endeavor before I start.

Thanks,
Jim

Racing · #98 07-17-2007, 05:02 PM

Jim.
In short,IMO it simply isn´t worth the effort BS around with the KE.
It is extremely labour intense,and the outcome when in success is marginal.
Go the route of a stand alone and you´ll never look back.

Just finished the conversion on my old ladys 16V,and it simply isn´t the same car anymore.
Power has gone up considerably and mileage has improved in the same manner with engine character about on par with the stocker-only more reactive.

BenzMacX · #99 07-17-2007, 09:27 PM

well, no doubt I will do the conversion weather sooner or later... If she doesn't pass emission testing then it will be verrrry soon, if I squeak past again then I will probably wait until next summer when I will be free and have time to work on it.

Was the installation fairly strait forward? Did you use the Megasquirt system or did you use something else?

In news of what we did today,
Intake manifold is pretty much on, and the water pipe that goes through the chain is on.

Thanks,
Jim

Racing · #**100** 07-18-2007, 04:12 AM

Jim.
I´m biased as we at the shop convert 16Vs by the bundle.
We use a european system developed mainly in Sweden by the name of VEMS.Manufactured in Hungary.

Similar to the MS.

Results that can be had is better than fair to be honest though.

Torq

Power

That´s the dyno run of my friend Johans 2.5.
Put a 194.7 to the rollers on the KE.
By converting to the VEMS...226@7000rpms.
Atop of that mileage has improved as well as the dynamics of the engine(throttle response aso)

Those numers are not the end of it though as Johans bottom end is so worn it´s beyond explanation.You could do your hair at the crankcase ventilation.

What you might need help with from someone like me is the config and adjustments.My advice is to ad the cost of a dyno session to the conversion,and spend time getting accustomed to the software to be able to play around with it.
System is wideband O2 controlled,which leaves you with a resolution the KE could only dream of.

Btw.
Mainly due to the WB control of the system Johan passed emissions over here too.
Limits are 0,5%CO and 100ppmHC coupled with Lambda being measured at elevated revs(2500).Has to be between 0,98 and 1.03.
WB will make it all happen,as you can adjust even the time elapsed for the closed loop to take effect.

There are differences between the VEMS and the MS though.
One of them being that the VEMS can be had ready built directly from the factory.
Likewise the processor of the VEMS is claimed to be more capable.

BenzMacX · #**101** 07-18-2007, 11:06 AM

That is very encouraging... I will try to do this as soon as i can. Does the VEMS system have a way for using the stock Throttle Body or do you have to use something else? With the MegaSquirt system most 16v owners resort to buying a BMW 325i Throttle Body, and it ends up looking like crap. I would prefer to use the stock throttle body, but apparently, it is very hard to integrate a TPS sensor into the throttle body... How did you go about this?

I am taking my injectors and cold start valve to Mercedes next week for testing (my mech is going to do it for free

) However it is supposed to rain all day today and tomorrow so I may not be able to get much done the next few days, but there isn't that much left to go back together anyway.

Thanks,
Jim

Racing · #**102** 07-18-2007, 05:49 PM

I use the OEM one.
What i do is that i take it completely apart and put the TB axle in the lathe.
Turn it flat at the end where the TPS goes,and then drill a 5mm hole in the end of it.
Take a metric 8mm bolt...and turn it down to 6mm.

Tap the TB axle M6 and likewise with the modded M8 bolt.
This way i just screw the modded bolt into the OEM TB axle and tighten it up together with a drop of loctite,and then cut to appropriate lenght needed to operate a "real" TPS.
TPS i use is a Ford EECIV/Haltech.

It´s fairly small in dimension and will fit the OEM intake.
Use two M4 bolts to hold the TPS to the OEM TB.

Injectors.
Try them yourself.
Easy as pie.
Unbolt the allen bolts that retain the injector bosses to the intake manifold.
Lay the injectors-still connected-ontop of the intake.
Release the latches for the airfilter.

Have a helper turn on the ignition while you VERY gently(approx a mm or so)depress the KE flapper disc downwards.
If the spray pattern of the injectors are ANYTHING than a mist...it´s replace time.
It is imperative that they produce a mist even at very low depression of the metering plate.(as minimal as you can do it even)
Point is that when the injectors get crud/resin in them the first thing to show evidence of this is the spray pattern,and then mainly at low loads.

BenzMacX · #**103** 08-02-2007, 06:44 PM

Well, After i put everything together, put the oil and water flush and power steering fluid in the car i turned the key and less than a half a second later i heard the unbelievable growl of a 16v running only headers! The beast started up just like it always had before, without any issue at all and immediately. It was almost like I never did anything (except that noise of the chain eating my engine had gone away

).

I owe alot of that to you Racing, without your help this would have been an endeavor i probably would not have finished this summer, if ever. Thank you very much.

Right now the car is running on its shot old exhaust system, but on Wednesday it is getting a brand spanking new Stainless steel performance exhaust from Time Valve, which should help it out even more.

Also, by the time I drained the cleaner oil (oil we used to flush the oil system and drained almost immediately) the oil had gas in it already! That was maybe 10-20min of run time. My mech. said the injectors were shot, two leaked and two produced a crappy mist, so I replaced all 4.

I am still getting some mild oil pressure problems, I don't know if i am still getting fuel in the system, but if I am, then the only thing left is the cold start valve, so that would get replaced...

However, I still plan of the updated electronic fuel injection system for next year, but I have not yet decided what to go for, the VEMS system you recommended or the MegaSuirt system. Megasquirt seems to be more popular over on this side of the pond, but also seems to be quite inferior in features/capability, but has much better english documentation than the VEMS system. If I were to go with the VEMS system, where would I get parts from? I know there is an ebay seller (Silvercosworth) that sells alot of custom parts exactly for this (pulleys and fuel rails and regulators, 36 tooth "harmonic balancer"...) would all of this work? What did you use in yours?

JimSmith · #**104** 08-02-2007, 08:25 PM

Racing,

I have to reiterate my son's sincere "thank-you" for your help. I was in Montana on business when he got the last screw tight and the last hose clamped. He called to ask a question and then fired it up while I was on the phone. He was so elated that it started right up and ran so smoothly - I could tell from his voice how happy and proud he was. A quick look at the engine, which is glistening and shining (the aluminum wheel cleaner really worked well on the intake manifold, by the way), and has no leaks of any kind validates his feeling of pride. He did a great job, took his time, and other than the persistent *****ing in the beginning when the job seemed to expand exponentially in scope every time we got another part off, he was really into it. It runs quieter and smoother than at any time we have owned it, which is about three years now and approximately 20,000 miles.

The oil pressure still droops slightly, about 0.2 bar or so from being pegged at idle once the oil reaches about 100 degrees C. Jumps right up to the peg as soon as you come off idle though, so I think it is probably technically acceptable.

When we flushed and changed the oil after the first twenty minutes or so of running, the oil was still as clear as it was when it came out of the bottle. The filter had some very minor aluminum contamination, and very small pieces of other "stuff" that likely accidentally fell into the engine when we were disassembling and reassembling the engine. We will likely change the filter again shortly just to be sure all the particulate stuff is out. We have it running on Mobil's Delvac-1, a 5W-40 high grade synthetic with an additive package that is designed to keep Diesel soot in suspension, and still provide superior lubrication and heat removal for extended periods of time. In the past this oil has freed up stuck rings on old Diesels and makes the black, dirty engine oil something you can wash off your hands with soap and water. Being an old MB Diesel driver, I have had my share of that black stuff in my pores and finger print features on my hands. It used to be so bad it had to wear off as nothing would actually wash it off. Anyway, the Delvac-1 should help clear out the rest of any debris we let fall into the engine, and keep it good and clean.

I think the previous owner used non-synthetic oil for the first 120,000 miles, and he raced it at local club events in LA somewhere, which may be how the distributor drive gear/intermediate shaft support bearings got out of sorts to begin with.

Well, once again, thanks a million. We will be out driving it this weekend to make sure it is really solid before my son takes it back to Purdue. I figured we would do a head bolt torque check before we start any longer runs, and then one more before he takes off for school - a good 16 hours or more of driving and the weather here is really hot at the moment.

Jim

Racing · #**105** 08-03-2007, 06:34 AM

Glad that i could help out.

That the oilpressure drops that little at idle when hot is not an issue.
You have to have in mind that you didn´t qualify big ends or mains in any way,but none the less it´s of absolutely nil consequense from a practical standpoint.(OEM litterature states that you´re alright as long as you get 3 bars@3000rpms.Pressure can drop to 1 bar at idle)

When it comes to fuelrails et al.
We make those ourselves within the team.

(Customer car)
FR is cut from aluminium. Drilled and tapped for small stainless clips to hold the injectors in place.Laser engraved.Barb or AN ends.

FR is setup in such a manner that the FPR housing(We simply make a housing for the OEM Bosch part for "newer" cars) is bolted to the end of it for a fairly compact design-also makes any service easier.FPR vaccum is taken at the connection that can be found at No4 intake runner of some of these engines.If it isn´t there,just drill a 4.5mm hole and insert a very short piece of brake tubing.(4.76mm)

VR sensor setups.
Now,i don´t say this to ridecule or belittle anyone,but trust me when i claim that VR sensor setups are very very complex.Complex WAY beyond what the average end user of a SA can even dream up.
When the VEMS was first set into production some of the really hands on evaluation was done on my own 16V(developer is a close friend of mine).We tried numerous VR sensor setups(in the 20s) and evaluated over an exhaust gas analyzer(Got a Sun MGA1200 at the shop) and an oscilloscope.
Objective was to develop a setup that the AVERAGE user could more or less plug in and go.
This means...that we were anal about for instance HC values at the EGA(exhaust gas analyzer).(HC= hydrocarbons=unburnt raw fuel)
Thing is...
A VR is basicaly nothing but one serious magnetic pickup,and as such it´ll pickup on anything that´s ferrous and moves.This incl what we don´t want it to pickup for signal or noise as well.
Now..true the reciever at the ECU end is more or less "intelligent"(normaly floating threshold),but none the less..the "noise" is there.
To such a degree that if you move the VR sensor WIRING a foot somewhere along the line to the right or left you´ll probably end up with a different noise pattern.A noise pattern that at one load or rev or another can very well produce a noise pattern the ECU has a hard time filtering out.
Granted,in some of the tries we got end results that would most likely never have bothered the average end user from a practical standpoint,but would most def have showed up at a sniffer test or similar.Like..we moved the trigger wiring a bit(For instance a couple of inches at the middle),and all of a sudden the HC values at 3000rpms increased from 60 to 300ppm.

As a result we ended up using a Honeywell GT101 hall effects sensor,and that is also what we recommend.Mainly because of ease of install and simplicity as well as availability.KISS,keep it simple stupid.

The trigger setup of a SA is the really hard part,and at least in my book it is NOT a matter of just setting the trigger up and go-if you use anything but the recommended Hall.
BTDT to say the least.

Agreed that a VR setup can be made to work.No arguments there.But,it is at least my belief that the average end user of a SA isn´t really all that interested in trying to redesign the wheel.What he wants he something simple to set up and go.A VR setup is anything but.

As for english documentation.
Jörgen Karlsson(one of the developers)is about as fluid in english as i am and can be contacted at;

jorgen@vems.se

Shoot him an e-mail.Tell him i sent you and take it from there.
That way you can at least make yourself an educated opinion.

Jesper