300CE turbo trouble
 

i started a project in the summer. i'm going to turbocharge my 1989 300CE coupe. now it is time for me to order forged pistons because my project is a lot like PUMPISH's car. i was going to order custom from CP pistons but i need info. for filling out their order form because there are like 50 measurments that i don't know. so please help me fill out the form. the engine is 1986 m103 3.0l. with about a 100k mi.

Why not ask Roman for the measurements he used? If you get even one of the measurements wrong the pistons could be unusable, it's not something you want to guess at.
I'm using new forged Oettinger pistons in my engine (they were made for Oettinger's 300E-24 3.6 conversion) and I had to get some bearings custom made so that they could connect to the rods properly.

How much Hp are you planing to get?
What other part are you planing to use?

I can fix the pistons but you know that you can get pretty high Hp with stock parts as long you can control your injection and ignition.

If you planing to use stock K-jet injection then no forget pistons can help you fron the damage.

Everything is about right tuning injection and ignition curve.

Before you thinking about BOOST you must instal the standalone magament system and drown K-et in the toalet:D

Please tell me about your setup you planing to make

I promise you that standalone system makes unbelievable differense so it feels like you got a new engine!

I agree 100%... Tell us how much boost you plan on running and/or how much HP your looking to make. If your only looking to add 7 or so PSI, just use the stock 9.2:1 compression. Now, If your looking to run 2 Bar (28 PSI) like Roman, your gonna need to go lower....
Adam

Hold on for a second.....are you building this motor yourself? If you are having a shop do it, they should be able to order everything that you need for you (once the motor is torn down). If you are building it yourself, it sounds like you have a lot to learn in a very short time and you probably aren't ready for this (yet). But again, assuming you are having someone else build the motor for you, I would advise against just up and buying some pistons. Once the motor is torn down, 1) you will need to decide if it needs machining (bores, valves, etc), 2) given the nature of your project, you will need to determine what kind of pistons to use, what physical properties (like land thickness, squish, effective compression, etc) you want. All of those things will need to be actually looked at, and could very well affect the dimensions of your pistons.....dimensions that your motor may or may not share with other m103's. Also, spending $1500 on a set of custom pistons right now, that you may not be able to use later, with little chance of selling, is probably not the best thing to do. I know it seems as if buying the pistons (or whatever else) will make your project happen sooner, but sometimes this is a waiting game. Good luck

off topic
 

No, don't do that please! Put it on a bookshelf, aside of you other antiquities, or use it as a presse-papier. One day it will be worth al lot of money:ukliam3:

By the way we have my old K-jet on the wall in our workshop becaurse we hate it so much:D
So it just hanging on the wall and looks like one ugly octopus:nice:

Im getting a set of pistons made up for my e320, they have asked me to send in a sample piston. Id suggest you do the same, much less room for error that way.
Regards

realy? what company is that 'cause that would save a tonn of work. and how much are you paying for your pistons?

Not really, the measurements for the M104 and your 86 M103 are different in many ways. Even if the piston manufacturer was to go ahead and blueprint a design, you will still need to give them specs on what your looking to use them for. I would highly suggest reading a couple of books and put a plan together before you just have pistons made. Nobody is going to do it better than "YOU" if you put the time and research in.
Hope this helps,
Adam

If you know what to do with the K-Jet III on a twin turbo install you can go fast and save a lot of money by not modifying the engine internals.

So far with the "ugly octopus" with two small Garrett T2's and a fixed .48 bar boost we're seeing a best 0-60 of 5.49 seconds measured with a G-Tech three axis accelerometer.
This was in a 90 degree f / high humidity ambient environment.

Cooler weather should bring the 0-60 time down a few tenths....
Will track the car soon to complete the tune.

If you can bolt on and go fast, along with building a reliable motor then why not ?

Yes it works with K-jet but far away from the Standalone system.
My first turbokit I had I used K-jet too and if I boost more then 0,5 then I blowned all vacum hoses and it was leaking everywhere under the octopus. And my gas account was just rising everyday.

If you some day try standalone system you never want to go back to K-jet.

When I opened the engine I could see many spike mark on the pistons and the head only after 0,5bar.

With standalone system I boost 1,7bar with 85 the whole last season and 1,4 bar with gas on stock engine. 1 year later I opened the engine and I could not find a mark of spiking and the engine looked like a new.

This season I boost 2bar and even I blown head gasket and was driving 1 week with water in the engine when I opened the engine the pistons and the head stil looked like new. Only crank bearings was damaged becaurse of water and 1 bearing came loose.

I got much lower gas account too. I consumed more gas with K-jet without turbo then I consumed with standalone system with turbo.

I ispected my car and exhaust gas last week without Kat:

CO: 0,01
HC: 22
Lambda: 1,3

I can say that the standaalone magament system is the best think you can ever to for your car even if you dont have a turbo.

You get more Hp even without turbo and lower gas account

Mercedes engines is very good but with standalone system they are the best:D

But of caurse everythink about how much the poeple want to pay. Megasquirt is very cheap in USA and works very well and can give you a possibility to boost much more so why not. You dont need to boost 2bar like I did but you can boost 1-1,2 bar and be safe.

But I understand that everybody can not install those kind of things and they choose bolt on kit for 0,5bar and I am agree with that

I'm using two additional injectors in the air body assembly above the throttle body for enrichment.
The additional injectors are controlled by a stand alone controller that is software set and 3D mappable.
The stock KE-Jet control functions as it should and doesn't even know when under boost.
Able to infinitely adjust the AFR from idle to max boost.


I'm required to run cats, so I use two 2.5" Magnaflow high flow spun metal cats.
Curious about your Lambda of 1.3.....seems like an extremely lean ( 1.3 x 14.7 = 19.11 ) air fuel ratio.
Would think you will damage the engine at these levels.

I'm set at .85 Lambda under boost and about Lambda at idle for optimum stoichmetric and no chance of detonation.

I use a Split Second additional injector control which will deliver enough enrichment via the two added injectors to the boost ranges that you quote.

Max boost I would ever consider would be around .7 bar using an untouched stock M103 with 9.2:1 compression ratio.

I'm prefer to do mods that will not effect the durability of the engine.
As you increase horsepower your performance returns tend to diminish as you now have a drive train that will fail.

If you can't get the power to the ground in a consistent manner then your power is negated !!!

About ratio in Sweden is the law for exhaust gas for all cars with Kat:

CO: 0,5
HC: 100
Lambda: 1,0-1,3

At the idling.

My Kat was broke but I could tune the system to get even better value. And this is imposible to do with K-jet.

At the low load as 50-60kpa I have choose lambda 1,0 and at 100kpa 0,95 and when i boost 1bar around 0,84 and 2bar around 0,75.

When I used K-jet with my first turbokit I used piggyback SMT6 with 4 extra injectors so it was not only K-jet.

With standalone system is like day and night!
I promise you u must try it and you will never to back to k-jet again.

To compare 20 years old K-jet and modern magament engine system wich developing every month and getting better and better is absurd.
With standalone system you have completly 100% control over the engine and it is real fun too.

In sweden racing is very popular this days and it is many racing companys and many many intusiasts everywhere allmost on every corner and every car has standalone magament systems.
Standalone system is the future of all kind of racing.

Good example: We had a customer with Audi 100Turbo with stock K-jet injection (k-jet for turbo, better then mercedes k-jet) and he got 260Hp with 1,1bar at the Dyno and then installed NIRA (standalone system) and with the same boost 1,1bar we got 410Hp!

Like I sad it is impossible to compare a modern thing with 25years old thing

And about to get the power to the ground is just to use slicks if i wanna go to streetrace otherwise I love to drift:)

that is exactly why i will use Megasquirt.

Roman has asked me to chime in here for the sake of reason.

No offense in any way,but the mere fact is that you can hamper with the Kjet and its derivates to hell freezes over and it won´t touch a SA anytime of the week.

I´m NOT in any way coming down on your install...i recap that i´m NOT.

I´m just asking you to compare apples to apples,and again...the mere fact is that the old KE won´t touch a stand alone from a performance standpoint.

Don´t know how aware you are of it,but we´ve learned to extract insane amounts of power mainly by understanding timing needs under boost.
How would you adjust a KE/EZL setup when being optimum for NA use when going turbo,and what´s more...at what cost?
In short,when you´re getting into turbocharging..please give the SA some thought.
If nothing else to keep your own sanity so you won´t be running up the walls in the long run.

Having said that, we´re nowhere into this from a dynamic driving point of view,economics asf asf..list simply goes on and on.
Modern,digital electronics will beat an old mechanical system every time...as there´s this little thing called evolution.

Don´t get me wrong.
Anything man made can be modified to work under different parameters than it was setup to do,but the point is that in the case of the KE it simply isn´t cost effective,and when done you STILL won´t touch the resolution or adjustability available with a stand alone system .

As for transmission failures...again no offense,but you have no idea what you´re talking about.
Me and Roman both run stock units,and you have to cross the 600hp line for real to start experiencing trouble.
In my case i´m currently running like 500 ,and i´m on slicks down the 1320 every now and then in the 11s bracket,and mind you this with my daily beater.(IOW the poor getrag has to take some severe punishment-and it STILL lives)

Agree with Roman and Racing. I'm sure your supplemental injection system works good for your application but it could be better. For instance, With the two extra injectors your using, the intake manifold is obviously running wet. This manifold was engineered to run dry. Now your O2 sensor is telling a different story because it's reading the combined cylinders. However if you were to analyze each individual cylinder you would find that some are running rich and some are lean, most likely cylinders 1 and 6. With a programmable EFI system you can easily eliminate this imbalance. There is always something to gain with more precise inputs and outputs.
Adam

Appreciate your response and no offense taken.
I've seen the results of "insane" power in Roman's latest engine and transmission self destructing.
Not meant to offend more to give a reality check.

How fast do you want to go with "insane" power and how much will it cost???

Seems like Roman has an unrecoverable investment in his last attempt to go 200MPH !!!

I've just asked reasonable questions of him such as posting his dyno charts, so I can better understand not only how, but why build an M103 to turn 10000RPM, but peak power is made under 7000RPM.

I believe I posted that I am using a very expensive ?( $350.00 !!! ) stand alone additional injector controller to fire the two injectors above the throttle body.
It has a built in MAP sensor so it reads engine speed and manifold absolute pressure which is controlled by a software setting.
Under boost I run 12.5 AFR / .85 Lambda.

I dyno'd and tuned on a Mustang load dyno.
Produced 196HP and 220LBFT torque.
Far from "insane", perhaps laughable to most much younger then I.

But yet with meager numbers, I'm able to run 0-60 in 5.49 seconds in 90 degree F / high humidity ambient.
You seem to have knowledge of "insane" turbo installs, so I guess you will realize that dropping ambient temp 40 degrees with low humidity should improve acceleration by 3 to 4 tenths.

Not bad for an antiquated semi electronic fuel injection system.

Know very well the "theory of evolution" as applied to the modern internal combustion engine.

How much in time and material did Roman spend on his recently "deceased" motor ???
Is that considered cost effective...help me with his HP/$$$ ratio so I can better understand how cost effective your engine building is !

Correct me if I'm speaking out of turn, but didn't Roman destroy a transmission per his posting???

No offense but if you are making 500RWP, then your at around a 6-7LB/HP power to weight ratio.
On slicks I would think you should be under 11 seconds and trapping 130MPH +.
Unless of course the power to weight calculations no longer hold true !!!

I hope you are not offended, but I'm an old guy whose gone very fast in his life, and am trying to understand where I'm going wrong.
My results aren't telling me, but I'm open to knowledge !!!

Adam

Not sure where you were when Willi Mosselman did the first twin turbo kit on the M103 back in 1990.
Do you recall his "Silver Arrow" 300CE and 300SL ???
He was not a fan of additional injectors, so he used an adjustable piggy back controller that in essence allowed the EHA to supply more fuel.

TurboTechnics from the UK believed in additional injectors.
Their weak point was in their non adjustable fuel enrichment controller which tended toward lean under boost.
They attempted to compensate by using Hobbs switches off the manifold to trick the EHA to a full throttle condition and to retard the timing under boost.
Not the best resolve of an engineering problem !

I purchased one of the remaining TurboTechnics kits from the UK authorized Merc dealer who commissioned them for install on new cars in 1991. ( They are still all running in the UK, some with close to 200K miles !!!)
Delivered to my door it was $2600.00 and included a complete large bore ( 2.25" ) stainless steel exhaust system.
Also for any turbo afficionado, they had cast iron turbo manifolds which are much, much better then fabricated tubing !!!

The install was on my 1988 300CE ( purchased new in may 1988 for $53K) M103-12V with 63K miles

SOOOOOO.... can you say "cost effective".

Kit uses two small Garrett T2's, zero lag as they spool up much faster then a larger turbine.
Torque comes in instantly and the performance is faster then a 500E and approaching " Hammer" numbers.

The key to unlocking the real power was to discard the supplied piggy back electronics and use a Split Second AIC unit.
Computer programmable and 3D mappable.
This along with modernizing the intake and boost piping along with a ram air intake made a substantial difference.

So back to the "wet" manifold that you are concerned about.
TT used an interesting injector assembly with an air shield that appears to maintain a mist and doesn't allow the fuel to drop out of the airstream prior to getting to the stock injectors in the runners.
There has been no sign of any noticeable variance in the cylinders as the plugs after many dyno hours read all about the same.


Don't knock "cost effective" old school that can keep up with all but the latest M3's !!!!
You could always do something better, but when you trash an engine trying to make "insane" power, you really haven't achieved a thing, let alone "doing it better"
Remember this is a straight "street" car.....
Watch out for guys that could be your grandfather driving "unsophisticated" cars....they might smoke you !!!



http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b183/rbycc/TTCM10.jpg





http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b183/rbycc/TTCM15.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b183/rbycc/TTBM11.jpg

To be honest no $$$ at all, I am sponsered by mercedes jankyard so I have about 3 more M103 to blown away. I just wanna se how much they can handle. I stil dont know yet becaurse my last engine broke becaurse of I forgot to put a clamp to water hose on radiator and the hose came loose when I was racing with motorcykle and not because of high boost and high RPM.
Next target is 2,5bar!

By the way even if i did not have a jankyard sponsor I could by the M103 just for some 400-700$ on junkyard. Not big money at all to run 700hp with. And the only think I need to repare on my broken engine is bearings, its about 200$. So the damage was not so expensive.

You should know hat the engine was not new and been using for 400000km and stil handle so much power

About high RPM so I will order a turbo camshaft and maybe put a little beat bigger turbinhouse becaurse M103 high RPM are amazing, its sounds and feels amazing!

To drive w124 or w201 with 600+++Hp is something you must feel "live" to understand WHY some poeple never get happy with 0,5bar:D

And about tranny we allready have a few good solutions, next season will tell;)

Don't take me wrong, the lean condition I am describing would be pretty far from smoking a cylinder but none the less, the unbalance is still there. I wouldn't be so concerned with vapor dropping out as much as not making it to the intake runner. You say yourself that you switched the the Split Second supplemental because you thought the kit's stock enrichment needed improvement. I believe we are all just saying there is room for more improvement by switching to EFI. Now, weather or not springing $1200 or more for the better torque and throttle response with the same amount of boost is worth it to you, that's another matter. You may be perfectly happy with what you have already and by the way, you did a very nice job! If you do eventually go for EFI I think you will enjoy tuning it. Just remember you haven't even messed around with ignition timing yet. You'll be amazed by what a few degrees here and there does for you!
Enjoy!
Adam

How many hours did it take you to do your fabrication and build your engine?

This is what I really fail to comprehend.
You're claiming to achieve 9000+ RPM with a M103-12V.
So at what RPM are you producing peak power and torque?

You previously posted running at 9000RPM and attempting a 0-200MPH run.
9000 RPM with 3.07 gearing would theoretically calculate to about 210 MPH.
Amazing that you claim to reach speeds with a .37cd that exotic super cars fail to reach.
AMG was never able to get more then 180 +/- with a W124.

No offense intended but would really like to see your dyno charts, especially the one where you indicated over 10K rpm.

I'm interested in the shape of the power curve !

Thanks



Last time I drove a 600HP vehicle was 1972, so I more then know how it feels to run fast in a straight line.

Adam

How does the EFI adjust individual cylinder fuel feed from the O2 sensor loop?.
Doesn't it use one wide band O2 sensor, that is no different then what I use, that reads the combination of more then one cylinder ?
Do you have the ability to read individual cylinder Lambda ?

I'm running twin turbos, in essence two three cylinder engines running on the same crank shaft.
True 2.25" dual exhaust thru two in line Magnaflow spun metal cats.
Pipes do not commingle exhaust gases until they reach the rear silencer.
Each pipe has a wide band O2 sensor for tuning purposes.
Vehicle was run on the dyno while reading the Lambda AFR from the O2 sensors.
Fuel mapping and timing was adjusted and locked in when we got max power.
The R2 software has initial settings.
Logically the setting would be 6 cylinder 4 stroke, but a "tuner" trick is to set at 3 cylinder 2 stroke.
This doubles the pulse firing of the injectors under boost conditions.
Keep in mind that the fuel delivery system in essence is between two "pumps".
You're seeing a positive boost discharge from the intercooler and a negative suction from the engine.
No different in theory but much more efficient in how a carburetor delivers an even air fuel mixture equally thru intake runners to each cylinder. !

Ed A.

I hear ya.
As i´m not axactly 22 either,and indeed do this for a living i´ll try and sort it out for you.

Main point for a stand alone isn´t really the gospel of fuel as often touted.
Fuel COULD be injected by the use of a hose if need be.(Emulsion needs disregarded)
It is one of 3 dimension adjustable timing.
What we´ve learned over the years is that the need for induced turbuluence/swirl goes down with boosted engines as swirl needed for instance for a NA engine is already induced to a large degree by the huffer.
That,coupled with the increased dynamic compression ratio will diminish the need of ign timing to a large degree as boost comes on.
When and where as far as engine character is easily adjusted with a SA-which can´t really be said for other setups.Cells of a good SA will interpolarize for what it´s worth btw.
It will also make boosted engines very sensitive to it in comparsion to an NA engine.
A mere 2 deg can make for a world of difference in power as well as behaviour.

As you adjust timing in 3D over a matrix on a SA it stands to reason that we can cater more or less exactly to engine needs and character in a way not possible with other setups-and...it will make for some BIG dividents in power.
An EGT helps a ton when performing this,but more so understanding what it tells you.

Now..i for one am not running the 6 pot 103.I´m using a 4 banger 16V.The 102.983.
Nor am i making 500 at the wheel (never claimed to)but as a fair guestemate at the crank,and instead of letting my yapper go off til end of time...

Haulin ass

Flick isn´t exactly representative tho,as;
a/I run a mere 1.2 bars of boost
b/Because i´m an idiot i ran on a mere 8deg of timing as i lost TPS signal-which in turn made the ECU believe we were going for idle(electronic idle control activated)-simply my bad,but happens i guess.
ECU pulled 15deg of timing trying to make the engine reach idle...

Here´s another of one of the boys within the "gang" around here.Gordon

1320 feet and then some...

Altho close to 11...it´s STILL a 220km/h trap,indicating that the oumph is there for a 9 sec run with chassis work.(See...i´m an old dragracer too:D)

Representative of a beater chassis i´d say-from a dragracing point of view.
Tires are ET street btw.

Roman then...
I think you got the man wrong.
It was once said that the price of progress is trouble(John Kettering),and some of us have no problem blowing crap shy high to find the limits-IMO for the benefit of all.
The engine Roman just blew into orbit wasn´t a built one.It was to the letter OEM from stuttgart,and atop of that...with a number of miles on it.
As for my own rustbucket..it´s been running like a champ for the last 20 000US miles-and is still ticking.
Over time i´ve blown;
a/2 headgaskets.My own "fault" in hunt for a working and powerful timing table under boost.
b/1 valve shim.Simply cracked it.
I´ve lost track of how many people i´ve given a ride in the POS(whcih can be attested by a number of customers across europe by now)...i´ve lost track of how many streetraces i´ve won(and nope..streetracing looks way different than over in the US around here).In fact,to a degree where the POS rustbucket hasn´t been beat for the last 2yrs on the street.
(Not entirly true,i got beat by a tuned Honda 900cc fireblade in an iprovised 1/8 mile streetrace once-on the other hand i wasn´t on slicks at the time)
Mind you,this on a motor that has NOT been overhauled,bored et al,and has NOT had parts thrown at it like they were going out of style(apart from cams it´s all OEM components).In fact,as of current i run a piston play along the lines of 0.5mm.
In fact,total cost of project is along the lines of 3500 dollars including sinter clutches,turbos,SAs and slicks.Then again that isn´t representative as i´m really really in the loop.New motor and car coming up is a different matter tho.
(Current one was and is my winter beater)

Again.
Price of progress is trouble,and when looking for optimum timing tables,AFRs asf...you bust parts.Hopefully not stuff that takes forever to mend.

But...
200hp is a FAR cry from 600,and it would be safe to say that pushing 450-500 out of a stock 103 is a breeze.
Pushing shy of 400 out of the 102.983..same thing,(Limited by stock conrods IMO),but then at a lesser degree of boost thanks to the flow of the valver.

Anyways.
Getting tech again,let me assure you that running piggys isn´t the best of solutions either.
No matter if they´re MF2s,SMT6s,PIC5s or what have you.
Main reason being that most-look above-don´t interpolarize.
Further,one of the major culprits would be the mercedes trigger element for the EZL,as it is "built" in a way most modern setups won´t read.
Mercedes and Audi alike uses a negative pulse to arm the systems-which is in contrast with most others and hence also most piggys as well as SAs.
(Most other systems arm on the first positive pulse from the VR or Hall)

On indiviual injector trim.Agreed.
True enough there IS such a thing as sequential,but for the record most have no idea,and what´s more the power to be found by the use of it is a laugh compared to just uppin the boost by 0.05 bars..IOW..no point seing the time and money that needs to be invested.(Which is a LOT for those not into this)
IMO an internet thingy for the most part...as you can´t market a SA for the love of god if it isn´t sequential in operation these days.99.99% of all customers wouldn´t know what sequential operation takes as far as performance if it hit them over the head.They still crave it from the ECU tho...

As you seem clued in on this..
Just imagine the strength of being able to LOG for instance EGT vs AFR and timing values,and have an electronic over ride to go with it during mapping.

What´s more..you´re NOT correct on the WB setup.
System i use at least has two such inputs standard,and can be built to take 6 if needed.No sweat.(IOW you COULD put one in each primary if the need arises)
Likewise it has two inputs for EGTs as well.(which in turn can be modded to take more of them)


No.Cast iron is most def NOT the ultimate material for turbo hedders.
Just to prove my point,when we´re bulding high end turbo motors over here,obviously not completely without merit, one of the things that will affect spool to a great extent is hedder primary lenght coupled with collector phasing,entry angle and pipe diameter.
Cast iron will also scale just as will steel,just at somewhat elevated temps.
What i use is Inconel reinforced,acid resistant steel,and that will take it(Granted...it´s a dayum arm and a leg tho).Inxs of 1200degC,and this at elevated pressures(of which a turbo engine won´t even get close by industrial standards).
By the use of longer primarys(600mm up) we´ve found out that the turbo won´t affect the engines running behaviour in the same manner as boost goes up,and spool will follow suite.
Further,but trimmin primary lenght we also get away with building the basic engine up in a manner similar to its NA counterpart as far as camshafts and what have you.
We can increase timing as exhaust dilution is kept down-and as a result power will go up.

Funny you mention spool,cause there´s a LOT to be said from that respect,and we´ve investigated the subject to great extent much due to a bunch of poor racers up north that were determined to make the big ass huffers work on small displacement engines.
...and they did.
To a degree where it is important to even keep turbo oilpressure under wraps and control(it will affect spool in a very solid way too)

Guess what i´m trying to say is that there´s a LOT more to this than meets the eye.

On the K systems then.
I´m old enough to have been around when they were all we had to play with.
Have had the plunch heads modded beyond belief to make them cope fuel wise.
Just a couple of yrs back i set out to show the young ones that it indeed CAN be done with an old Porsche i had around,and in doing so-revisiting the K- i surely understood what i had forgotten over time.
In short,seing how much i had to mod,how labour intense it was...NEVER again.Ever.(Used an SMT6 to control timing retard and ad-on fueling over two 480cc bosch injectors)

As i said,i do this for a living,and frankly speaking a fairly good one too.
Setting a SA up these days is easy enough if you know what you´re doing,and even the novice is capable of it if one just takes fair share of time.

I´m currently taking the valver another step...

http://www.102983.org/gallery/albums...l_DSC00002.jpg

http://www.102983.org/gallery/albums...3/normal_6.JPG

...gives you an idea.
This time...aiming for INSANE levels of power.
..and..modding the OEM getrag 275 to hopefully take it.

Still...with the intention of keepin it real,and keepin it for the street.

Correct.
If you missed that piece of info he´s on the other hand passed 600hp.

Thank you...appreciate the technical response !

My intent was not to negate any of Roman's achievements.
I have asked many times for him to post a dyno chart so I can see the shape and magnitude of the curve.
Claims of a 10K RPM motor make me extremely curious.
200MPH also raised my eyebrows as it would require 1100+ HP and not sure if a .37 cd of a W124 sedan would allow such an achievement.
AMG had difficulty around 180MPH.

I can understand your application on the Cosworth head 16V engine.
Two valve per cylinder engines as the M103 tend not to be conducive for many reasons at high RPM's.

I fully understand the application of the SA management.
But wasn't the word "cost effective" being used?
I saw a whole lot of "expensive" internals in Roman's posts, hence my initial questions.

My post was simply to state that the stock M103-12V engine with untouched internals can be made to put out enough power to keep up with late model AMG and M cars.
It's a challenge to work with a semi electronic injection system and it can be extremely cost effective even including a learning curve to adapt with more sophisticated control on a TT application with supplemental injectors.
When you grow up on carbs, the semi electronic injection makes a bit more sense.

I am of the school that a street engine should be built primarily with reliabilty as the foremost concern.

My comment on the cast iron manifolds addresses this point.
I know of no tubular product that will not over time be affected by thermal cycling which results in leakage at the flange.
Very rare to see a machined cast iron manifold face surface become untrue.

Convince Roman to post his dyno results when he completes his 10K rpm motor !!! :cool:

Agreed 100%.

My new one is the exception to the rule,cause altho intended for the street...it´s anything but a street engine anymore.
Multiple disc sinters,full bore 3.5" exhaust aso..the full 9 yards IOW.

FWIW.
I´d say that the "cost effectiveness" is a matter of opinion,cause if you value time-your own-at all...
Look at it this way.
I personaly use the swedish VEMS SA.
It runs approx 1000 bux ready built.
Atop of that you need various sensors and injectors leaving you with a total around 2 grand.(Injectors,FPR,Fuelrail,sensors,wires and sheaths for them)
You get the box with EGT input and wideband lambda sensor for those 1000 bux.

Now,with those 2 grand invested you still need to install it yourself,which is straightforward enough.
Then it´s a Q of getting the whole thing adjusted.

Thing is...
If you add up the cost of the piggy coupled with hotter spark,injectors needed ,the WB setup aso...it´ll most def get to be a penny or two as well,and the major culprit here is that due to the vastly higher resolution and realtime adjustability the SA will beat the "modded" OEM piece hands down 10 times out of 10 from every perspective there is.
Further,that you CAN wring your laptop out and just go at it with the ease you do makes for it to indeed happen.
Instead of spending hrs and hrs on end...you spend minutes.

List goes on.

But..that´s just my opinion.
To a degree where i haven´t installed an aftermarket chip or similar in the last 10yrs as i just refuse to when the SAs of today are as afforable as they are.

Agreed that these engines can most def be made to not only keep up with the "M" cars et al,they can be made to leave them behind like a bounced check..

(Funny u mention it,cause it said with bold letters written with an ink marker on my boot lid...
"WHO THE F IS "M"?":D

Subject of manifolds.
It´s ALL a matter of material.
Trust me. :)

You will not...i repeat,you WILL not...warp inconel.
For the sake of argument,altho what i use is the 600 stuff...the 718 is used...as heat protection the underside of the spaceshuttle.
Temps will have turned your cast iron piece to a molten piece of metal b4 the inconel turns in the towel.

May I quote you ? :cool:

I think we tend to agree on the technicals.

I guess my difficulty with any claims made on forums, be they substantiated or not, tend to give those that have no conception of time or cost to build a vehicle, a false sense of what they can achieve !!!

I tend to question based on my knowledge, in hopes to open the eyes of those who will jump in and start taking the head off the engine, then not know what to do with it.

In a way, a bit of a "cynic" or "devil's advocate" ;)

I still would really like to see the dyno chart of any M103/M104 that you know of that is capable of close to 10K RPM. :dizzy2:

My goal as the weather cools a bit is to get my brought up to date, "period" TurboTechnics install to run 0-60 in close to 5 seconds flat.
Keep in mind auto trans and 3.07 gearing.
Will complete the tune hopefully under 1/4 testing and believe I will see mid 13's and 100+ mph.
Trying to perform as the new 335 TT Bimmer does at a fraction of the cost ! :D

"Iconel".....I will not dispute the use of this alloy in high temp applications.
Very familiar with its performance in process industry installations..
Kind of costly too !!!

You're light years ahead of material choices from the majority of USA fabricators.
Took a long time to use stainless in instead of carbon steel, both of which lack the thermal cycling properties of inconel...

See you can teach an old dog new tricks !!!:pleased:

Racing...

New subject.

What do you do to lower the engine bay temps in a turbo install?

Consider almost all of the USA has summer ambient temps that tend to reach 35C along with high humidity.

Do you use heat extractor vents in the hood?
Asking because I'm about to install 280Z extractors which would mimic the hood mods that Willi Mosselman did on the TT Silver Arrow 300CE/300SL in 1991.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b183/rbycc/TTSA1.jpg



Concerned about residual heat breaking down insulation and rubber parts !!

Thanks

Ed A.

I never sad that I will torture my stock engine with 10K rpm next season.
I wanted to see what happed if I run without revlimit and I made one try and reach 10120 and it sounds just amazing but it will never last for longer if I put 10k as arevlimit BUT I will stil rum with 8000rpm revlimit even If i lost Nm at 6000rpm and Hp at 6500hp. Becaurse if I run up to 8000rpm and when I change the gear I get higher rpm and higher boost at the next gear and I got this experince by doing that at the streetrace by winning time. I have rev limit at 8000rpm even on my other winter car (190 2,6) I driving daily for 2 years now and torture this car 8000rrm all the time without any problem.

But when I finished with my M103 stock expiriment I have a other engine I am builing at the side with CP pistons and pauter rods and other stuff what I am planing revlimit at 9000rpm and 1000hp++

Then I love doing that even if I need to damage many parts on my way to my target. So you can not just say that all this staff I am doing is unnessery and its good enough with 0,5bar and K-jet. Becaurse I stil think that K-jet should be drown in the toalet and 0,5 bar feels like a tired turtle.:D

Even if I am not finished with my expiriment yet I can allready say that you can run 500hp on stock m103 and have reliable engine for very long time. Most becaurse of SA and of caurse the mercedes m103 quality;)

Hi Ed,
There are sequential injection systems out there that can individually tune cylinders on the fly with WBO2 sensors on each port but this would definitely be extreme for street application. You can however install bungs on each header during tuning to get an idea of what each cylinder is getting. What is commonly done in the racing industry is to have digital EGT probes on each port along with one or two WBO2 sensors. But even this is a little extreme for street.

Even if you are using two WBO2’s your still getting a reading from 3 cylinders not one. Check out this article I found on the net: http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/gm-tech/manifold-injection.pdf There are many other documents I have read that indicate the same results. Now, these numbers are for a GM engine and manifold. Not an M103. However the situation is still the same. The M103 manifold is a DRY manifold. It was not engineered to run WET. Your engine may run just fine as it’s setup but there will still be a larger percent if imbalance than there would be if you were running 6 matched injectors at the end of each runner, sequential or not. I’m not saying that your setup is unreliable, dangerous or faulty; it’s just that it could be better which would up your performance. Engines like balance. They want matched runners, matched mixture, matched displacement, matched reciprocating weight, matched headers. Performing all of this is part of the basis of engine tuning. By the way, I’m just making a point. You don’t have to go with EFI if you don’t want to. But I figure I’d give you an example of the differences and benefits.
Adam

Ed.
So far...nothing.
Haven´t done a thing for evacuating underhood air.
On the other hand,the top speeds in this country is all about bursts.
Very very seldome do we maintain high speed for any period of time.(Approx 80mph is the legal limit)

Have given it some though for the next setup tho,cause simply put ...he who labours got to sweat.
Idea is for a NACA duct approx 2/3s down the lenght of the hood.Do not go any closer to the windshield as there will be tubulence,and you might very well make the duct completely inactive.
Mainly to have somewhere for the hot gasses AROUND the turbo to escape.
Porsche used this setup with great success on the 931(924 turbo),and IMO the setups we fool around with are similar from an estethics point of view.

Further,there´s "help" to be found at the undercarriage if you ask me.
The 16V even sports a NACA in the undertray OEM for the catalyst vehicles,and i logicaly presume this could be improved/built upon.

Massive scoops on cars like this is out IMO...just isn´t done on a merc,but that´s just me.

Also have in mind that a NACA-when of correct dimensions-is WAY more effective than any louvers in the hood.

Within the engine cmpt tho,i mainly move the oilcooler and lay it flat as well as move it backwards-toward the motor.
Reasons for this is plentifold,but main one being lack of space within the radiator support-i to keep the OEM looks of the car i´m set to keep body mods to a minimum.(Which can´t be said for my current rust bucket)

Overflow tank i something i place next to the battery,and hoses leading to and from...i simply make a new hardline with outlets needed that goes for the heater element.Bracket and tank i use the Volvo "submarine" off the 740 series with a 125kPa lid.

Thing is,that mainly due to underhood temp i simply move the intire manage on the pass side inner fender,so in practice this area becomes clean from accessories-which is a void i use for the turbo hedder and wastegate.
Of course this also leaves us with a rather long arm of momentum for the whole thing to move around,and this in turn puts bigger loads on the engine mounts/cushions.
Therefore i use the "rally" ones for..again Volvos.
Solid mount....nope..not with a 4 banger.
With a V8...i´ve run it more times than i care to remember,and will continue doing so,but for an inline 4 banger...forget it.
Simply put the inherent balance of a 4 banger just isn´t there,leaving you with your eyes standing out of your head on sticks if you would even try to.
The 6 is better from this respect,but not as good as the V8 setup.

Another angle of attack when it comes to underhood heat is that of heatshields.
I use them,and form them from common aluminium sheet metal.
Turn weldbungs that i put windings of choice in and weld these to strategic point,then turn some oversize "washers" out of aluminium too,and bolt the whole thing together.
Point being that the high frequenzy vibrations always present with any running motor will rip bolts right through thin sheet metal aluminium if you don´t leave the thing with some similar material "reinforcements" to work with-hence the approx 1/4" thick "washers" at every bolt.
This is for shields bolted TO the motor tho,and they indeed work like a charm.
Another tip if you´re concerned with this is to visit your local weld house.
They will be able to supply you with welding shields out of weaved material that´s pliable,and efficient enough for you to actualy glue it in place.

Racing

Thanks

Have been discussing the heat problem primarily with owners of 500E's
There was one in Japan who has used wide louvers in the front of the hood, for intake cooling, but location would not allow extraction.

If I use the 280Z extractors they will be located as Mosselman did on the Silver Arrows.

Not worried as much about heat under driving conditions, more at idle and after shut down.

One 500E owner was thinking about exhausting via a fan.
I will be trying this probably next week.
Will be using an inline blower of the type that NASCAR uses to cool brakes.
It's tubular, about 7" long, with a 4" intake and a 3" discharge and moves 270CFM.

I'll initially use an inline thermal disc thermostat to turn on around 150F and off at 135F.
I need first to read spot temps with an infrared thermometer.

Considering locating the blower on the rear bulkhead at the centerline of the engine.
Will use 3" duct to the lower chassis on the intake side of the engine.
This should create a negative pressure to draw the rising heat from the turbo heat shields.

Have you considered this method ?

Thanks

Ed

Adam

Thanks your technical input.
I can't question any points you make and am in full agreement.

My "problem" ( not really !! ) is that I'm trying to recreate with as few visible changes a twin turbo W124 that was typical of what the "tuners" of the period created.

To me it gives a bit more "provenance" and will maintain the value of the vehicle.

I bought my coupe new in May of 1988 at a cost of $52K.
AMG, Mosselman, or TurboTechnic performance mods back then would add at least $20K to the cost.

Finding a full new TurboTechnics kit with large bore exhaust at Hughes of Beaconsfield ( authorized U.K. Merc dealer ) for $2600.00 to my door was an incredible bargain.

Right now I have put about $20K in parts and labor to first get the vehicle back to new in the engine ( head gasket etc. ) along with vented brakes, shocks, springs, swaybars, exhaust, and of course the twin turbo kit.

I'm ending up doing what it would have cost in 1988 and paying with 2007 dollars.

Results... a one owner immaculate 1988 300CE Signal Red over Palamino coupe that turns heads and most important performs equal to a new Bimmer 335 TT !!!

Let's keep the sharing of knowledge going !!!

Thanks

Ed

Roman

I am not being critical, what you are attempting is incredible !!!

All I ask is if you dyno a M103-12V that you are building for above 7000 RPM limit that you post a dyno chart.

I'm curious of the power peak, shape, and area under the curve.

Not many two valve per cylinder engines can breath and operate at the high RPM's that you are looking at !!!

Thanks your effort in the experimenting with the limits of the M103

Ed A.

Ed.
Not to show off,but the truth is that my training is primarily within the aeronautic field.
For something as "slow" as a car,it is wise to focus on exhausting air rather than how it enters.
Entry points can always be made up easily by some intelligent placement of sheet metal.
Gettin rid of the gas is another story,and more often than not takes some serious logic and thinking cap on.

I´m also to an extent an advocate of the KISS principle.
Ie;In this case as the NACA is around,why bother trying to reinvent the wheel?

As for underhood temps in traffic(IOW low speeds or standstill),i woulnd´t bother all that much.
Another area where a SA would be of help as you´re able to make it go closed loop over a WB...leaving you with a deal where the WB will counteract the difference in airmass from the heat from a fuel amount point of view.

Racing

Good points !!!

Simplicity is critical in designing for reliability and performance.

One of the reasons I discarded the supplied 1990"s era British piggy back electronics which were layered with redundant components along with some devices that really didn't do much !!!

That's why I'm considering heat extraction because as you state adding air into the engine bay still has to go some where !!!

First considered the NACA theory, but it doesn't look "period" on the W124.
Looked at the 280ZX turbo scoop which had a combination louver and NACA design

Being in the aeronautical field gives you a different vantage point from those that have automotive only training.

Thanks again.

Ed

Would that be one of the marvelous Microdynamics PIC5 units?
Old black one with 1 adjustment screw on it?

As you´re interested,another set of pics.

http://www.102983.org/gallery/albums...C00002%7E2.JPG

Cold side outlet.V-band and raw aluminium...simply "smells" right...

http://www.102983.org/gallery/albums...C00001%7E2.JPG

Inconel alloyed stainless really is tough to work with.Getting there tho,and as you can see the primarys are of rather....ample dimensions.
Thing is tho,that these engines were run on extremely vivid dimensions when in DTM.I sincerly hope to get away with it IOW.
Can even get a view of the 4" DP-or at least the first part of it.
Would have gone bigger if i hadn´t got the first part of the DP as straight as i did,but this way i see no reason to go overboard.
Had to fab a new pass side enginemount tho.Did so out of 5mm Domex steel-which in turn will be traingulated to the best of my knowledge.
We´re much like Roman proud that we mainly produce what we need and use inhouse at the shop.

Racing

Becoming obvious that your creativity is only limited by the size of the engine bay !!!! :cool:

Ed

[IMG]http://www.102983.org/gallery/albums...C00003%7E0.JPG[/IMG]

Gettin there Ed.
Bit by bit and day by day...;)

Ed.
Turned out pretty well.

http://www.102983.org/gallery/albums...rmal_7%7E0.JPG

Even looks mean.... :wacky:(even more so IRL)