EFI for m117?
 

I'm getting closer to the point where I plan on swapping out the CIS in my 190e 5.6 (like after I get it running and break the rebuilt motor in) for full EFI and just thought I'd post over here and see what you experts think. I know at least one other m117 has been EFI'd over on benzworld....possibly megasquirt (?). Basically I would like to pull as much power as possible from the motor in n/a form, and obviously customize the power delivery to the car. Having not done this before, I'm just wondering what system you think would be best, and what things I need to obtain aside from just the computer itself. My thoughts right now are either Haltech or TEC3, as it sounds like those offer a little edge over the megasquirt (though somewhat more expensive). Thoughts???

FLY, I told you to do this about a year ago if I remember right. I bet some 190E owners have some serious envy going on regarding your ride. That project is really starting to take shape.

On MB world, dig through S500R's posts regarding his supertouring 500E which he is converting to stand alone fuel management.

I've been thinking EFI for my M117 as well, but it hasn't been high on my priority list, but I am intersted in anything you figure out, and I think it is a great idea. I think that EFI would be good for at least 50 horsepower over the CIS especially with the 5.6 that you have or the 6.0 that I have.

haha....yeah, I wasn't in disagreement w/ you omega, just needed to get things running before embarking on another stage of the project :D

I think it will absolutely unleash some useable ponies, and most importantly allow us to optimize the power delivery from such compromized OEM specs.

I'll keep you updated on what I find.

So although S 500 R's project is amazing I can't really find anything that he has posted about EFI. You wouldn't happen to have a link would you?

Try looking at the "best you can do for your car" thread here on this board, as well as OughtSix's thread about the same.

I've collected all the parts other than a little hose required to convert my 500SEC to EFI (going with MegaSquirt), and will be documenting all that I've done when I get started on the actual conversion.

As far as mileage goes, I'm not sure how I did it, but the last tank through my SEC was highway mileage, and averaged 19.3 over 360 miles. Odometer was verified over 20 miles against the mile markers, just due to thinking it was running a little off, but proved to be accurate.
None the less, I'm hoping for improvement with EFI installed and tuned.

PM him about it. He mentioned it really breifly. Maybe he can give you more details. He told me he would post more about it when he gets to that stage.

Who said anything about mileage? ;)

Cool, I'll look forward to seeing your updates!

@ Omega....thanks, I'll do that

Try this website too. At home I have more info on the S500R project. I will email you all I know.

http://www.sdsefi.com/

what kind of spark do you wanna run?
Wasted spark with 2pcs 2x2 coils or do you wanna keep you distributor?

Next time I go to Robbans city and visit him maybe I can build a mould of his fuelrails and triggerwheel and let you know about that

What do you recommend for naturally aspirated street use Pumpish? I know you are really the resident expert here on CIS--->EFI :cool:

Wasted spark is more modern and better, specially at higher RPM.
V8 wasted spark contains 4 coils whats mean that it is has 4 times more time to charge and discharge each coil between the sparkfiring.
At the same time you never need to buy a new distributor or rotor every time you will make a service ;)

But it cost about 320 euro extra

So this will be sort of like the coil packs I have on my m113 then? What is the best thing to do to plug the distributer shaft hole on the block when you do this?

No its not realy the same coil pack. It is 2 of like this type:

http://d7161524.u110.foretag.surftow...oil%20stor.JPG

To plug distributor you can use aluminum plate like this:

http://archive.pixbox.se/arkivet/syn...0/20764728.jpg

You cn find more EFI parts here
http://www.turbobandit.com/gpage10.html

http://www.hitechengineering.net/DNN/MegaSquirted450slc/tabid/54/Default.aspx

This was posted here earlier and should help you as the intakes of the 450 and m117 are very similar, this guy is using mustang 5.0 19# injectors.. here is another link that talks about injector sizes etc..

http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx

Good luck with this I've been thinking about doing this to my '91 560sec for a while.. waiting for my fuel distributor distributor or some other expensive CIS part to crap out.

Your 190 build is BAd ass man congrats.

Thanks guys, yeah this will definitely be a little bit down the road, but its never too early to start planning and collecting all the items I will need.

I'm going to have rails made soon...drop me a line if you want to get in on them @ the same time:)

Do you have a trigger wheel, trigger bracket yet?

Jonathan

Jonathan,
I meant to ask when we talked about fuel rails, but forgot...

The trigger wheel and spacer you are working on, they are intended to allow fitting EDIS?
If not, what system did you have in mind, or were you just intending it to allow MS or equivalent management to use it as a position sensor alone, and to control the coil directly?

I'm thinking EDIS...everyone on MS seems to like it and parts are Cheap!

Give a ring, we'll chat:)

Jonathan

Yeah, I might be interested in that. No I haven't collected anything else yet

EDIS is easy to work and works nice but it also makes that you can not use many good funktions becaurse of the edis modul.

You can not set a real rev limiter with a ignition cut.
You can only cut fuel with edis.
You can not control dwell time
You can not use launch and antilag control
And some other funktions.

I think that wasted spark is the best sollution for MS and making the most clean install too

Point noted Roman!! You have far more experience w/ MS'ing Mercedes engines then I do. I'll focus on wasted spark:)


Jonathan

Jonothan and others, the coil packs from an LSx engine will be a nice option, they have internal igniters and in your neck of the woods they should be easy to obtain. They are what Im going to use on the 119 when I find some as theyre like hens teeth down here.

Thanks James, will make that our 1st choice:)

Jonathan

Can't wait to see this develop . . .

:-) neil

Any update ?

:-) neil

Right now I'm looking @ the Wolf EMS units to do stand alone.. Have a potential customer that wants to do the conversion on two cars... So hopefully he'll come around:)

http://www.wolfems.com.au/

Jonathan

This has been an interesting thread. It seams the recommendation is to go with wasted spark and both Roman and Jhodg5ck have built fuel rails. What about the intake manifold. It seems the old Djet manifold off the early iron blocks might be a better solution than the CIS manifold. Will the old Djet manifold bolt to the newer heads. It just seams like less restrictive plumbing on the Djet style and puts your throttle body where you can reach it.

Thoughts

I'll have to take a look and see what the D-Jet manifolds look like.

I already had a set of rails built (and forwarded the info to Jonathan), but I got the design from the work that another of the gentlemen here had done, for his 450SLC.

Count me in too as a potential on this. Need people for a group buy or anything yet?

By the way, I have MSII v3 running fuel only on my '74 450SLC atm, U can use a Volvo pressure regulator that holds at 40-45psi, but its very small, cheap and is a inline one that u dont need to worry about mounting, If your too cheap to make fuel rails like me u can use the stock fuel rails and get the ends of the Injectors machined down to the metal core at the end with a barb fitting so that u can use the stock fuel rails(When i get the 350 head to install i am going to make proper fuel rails as i will need to buy bigger injectors to cope with blowing the engine).

If u are going MS make sure u buy the relay board too, makes it a MUCH easier and cleaner install, For my 36-1 tooth wheel i am getting my front crankshaft pulley modified, the ring closest to the engine is not used so having little pieces cut out of it. Will be ballanced too, costing me $70au

The car is more responsive to planting the foot. It also does slightly better on mileage with just fuel, with spark too its ment to be alot better. atm getting about 18-19mpg with a bit of a lead foot. I will have spark in the car in a week or so, once i have all the bits

for a insane SLC
http://ozbenz.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5470
Do u know this guy Pumpish? He is in Sweden too, and its about to dump a 560 into the SLC for even more power.....

And another thing, i thought EDIS was a wasted spark system, 2 sparks at the same time? But either way in one of your videos of your car doing a dyno u mentioned that it was been rev limited by fuel cuts, i keep hearing that this is really bad specialy with a boosted engine, and some people say its fine, I take it u have never had a problem with fuel cuts over spark cuts?

WE NEED PICS, PLEASE!

:-) neil

Look here...http://ozbenz.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5491 has some pics in it, taken with phone and shrunk so not that good.

Shows clearly what i mean about removing the plastic on the injectors to make a barb fitting so u can fit it to the normal fuel rails. And the TPS is just a small Potentiometer that i hooked up.

By the way, anyone know how to get the 3speed slugomatic to shift at like 5.5-6k in first, it shifts 2nd-3rd at 5.5 atm, BUT 1st-2nd is only shifting at 4k which is a pain in the ass cause it really starts to pull then.:confused:

For another take on fitting a TPS, take a look around the Flickr account linked in my signature.
I just posted a few pics of the adapter plate I just worked out to fit an easily available Ford TPS to one of our throttle bodies. 1/8" aluminum plate, ~1/2" brass rod as a pivot shaft, and a few screws to fasten it all together. Cost me under $10 in material, and uses an easily available sensor that retails ~$50, rather than the no longer available MB sensor that was $90.

Mine cost me all of $15au all up including the petrol to take it to the engineering shop to get the hole drilled in my butterfly shaft with gromit screw to attach it :D
Here is the MSQ file i am currently using for my Iron block M117

Hi Bluefang
I am soon to do a MS on my 450SL (1973 D-Jet) So I am very interested in how your trigger-wheel conversion on a fan pulley works out.

I have made up a 'potentiometer' using a Volvo TPS bolted onto a DJet TPS backing plate, its quite a tidy conversion but I dont know how it will work yet.

Did you use an O2 sensor (W or N Band) where did you position it in the exhaust?

Was there a particular reason why you didnt use the DJet injectors?

Peter in Melbourne

O2 sensor is the standard megasquirt recommended one LC1-wideband and its placed just before the last bend on the down pipe(about 2ft from the start of the manifold, just before the pipe becomes flat to the underside of the body, Get the bung welded into the exhaust before u start pulling the car apart).
I used the Ford injectors because i knew they would fit perfectly, plus they were easy to get and cheap if i got second hand ones.

I would look at what u want to do with your engine before u decide on the injector size u get tho. I went for ones capable of 300-350 HP(19lb/h injector). But i am considering one or all of..... installing a supercharger, boosting the compression and getting new cams, bigger ceramic coated exhaust, which will put the car over 300hp pretty easily meaning i should have gotten bigger injectors. But need money first lol

I'm in the same boat, using used Ford injectors. 19lb/ph, pulled from a late model Crown Victoria, set me back $28 for the set, after shipping. (Someone didn't know what the heck they had, and sold cheaply on ebay.)

LC-1 wideband makes for easy tuning, as well.

I'm definitely eyeing the guys with the different boost sources. I'm a firm believer in the power of boost, and our convoluted intake plumbing just begs for some to overcome the restrictions.

http://ozbenz.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5470 is your engine with boost :D

U might be able to turbo yours tho, i dont know how much room u have in the engine bay of a SEC, but twin turbo, should be interesting ;)

This is the picture that prompted me thinking of a pair of turbos, but I'm still pondering how to keep from melting the paint off of the hood!

Admittedly, this is an engine from a 500e, not a 5L m117 engine!

I don't know how cheap MS is but I run a Tec3r and the thing is incredible.
Set up on the tuning is so easy. The tuning wizard takes your injector size and engine size and # of cyl. and some other data and fills in your basic tables for you. It starts and runs. I actually drove my car to work the next day without any additional tuning. Then you get your o2 set up and set your air fuel ratio table and the Tec will fill in the table for you. Your basic table minus the areas you can not drive in under load are filled in within a couple of trips to work.
The only thing bad I have to say about it is that it is very sensitive about ac interference from the starter and alternator and electric fans.
I had to install a resistor in my crank sensor wire to ground out the starter noise. Other than that it works perfectly.
It also uses waste spark. Which as others have testified makes plenty of power and can rev very high.
I would also suggest checking out the new Tec gt.
I have not used it yet but I have a friend that is about too.
I was also going to suggest for a fuel rail if you have not done this already to look at the rail from the m119. I am pretty sure that it will fit. I laid it over the top once and looked perfect. I am also looking in to having a flywheel made for my m104 that has the 60-2 teeth. I was going to use the flywheel from the m113 which fits on the car and is timed right but the torque converter will not bolt up and a v8 torque converter will not fit in my trans housing.

Just browsed around my machine and here are the 117 (w/ 1 119...) TT pictures that I have.
http://picasaweb.google.com/AMGEast/560TwinTurbo#
I'm looking @ the Wolf EMS..although I'm curious how much the Tec3 is going for..they look to be very similar on paper.

Josh, we're figuring out pricing on plumbing, turbos etc now for about a 450-550hp 5.6L..I'll let you know as it comes together:)


Jonathan

You can have Jet-Hot apply the coating to the outside of the turbo compressor and turbine housings. I've seen it done before.

I've been doing some reading and I'm dropping jethot and going w/ Swain Tech ceramic coating on anything exhaust related..

ST seems to put more importance on performance when compared to JetHot who seems to push cosmetics quite heavily.

Jonathan

Jonathan your post is confusing. You need to switch the order in your second sentence if you are going to use the word respectively.

I've done many things with Jet-Hot over the years and I've had good luck. Also they were local to me, so that cuts down on shipping expenses.

+1 on Swain Tech.

I have used them on my RX7 Twin-Turbo rotary down-pipe, and it does wonders.

IMHO, much more durable than Jet-Hot.

:-) neil

Or you could even buy the Ceramic spray paint and do it all yourselves for a fraction of the cost, you could do your whole exhaust for less then getting someone else to do it, and it is 90% as good from what i have read

I have yet to see a spray paint coating (i've fiddled w/ a few...)that holds up as well as the professionally done coatings.. I'd also be surprised if they worked as well:-/

Jonathan

+1

I tried on a piston engine, and my rotary. It's not even close to ceramic coatings . . .

:-) neil

What are we talking in cost for these processes. I used header wrap for my down pipes. I couldn't believe that between the wrap and high heat paint that you put on top, It was $150.00.

Less then 250 for Swain Tech to coat a set of 560 Tri Y's.

Jonathan