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  #1  
Old 10-12-2008, 07:55 PM
88Black560SL
 
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Wasted Spark with COP

I've been looking into engine management systems for my M120 V-12. My engine is a 1996 with standard MB Bosch COP. I would like to keep the COP, lets just say, for no other reason than it looks cool.

There is no engine management system that I have found that will drive 12 coils independently. Therefore I am wondering about the possibility of firing two COP coils simultaneously effectively creating a wasted spark system using 6 coil drivers.

Is this a can do ???. I havent seen any MB COP systems using an aftermarket engine management system. I have seen a few BMW's but never more than 6 cylinders. I belive MB and BMW use the same Bosch COP system with the 60-2 wheels. can anyone confirm.
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  #2  
Old 10-12-2008, 10:14 PM
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So have you decided to go with the PCS and dump the mb management for engine and trans?
The only system I know of is motec. Big money. Not 100% if it is sequential ign. or injection only. I am not sure you could run two coils off of one driver. Maybe to much current. As you said it is only cosmetic. You could run coils in board say in the car or on a mount behind the motor. Then run the wires from the rear, very clean.
The 60-2 teeth thing is only different by were the gap is. I do not know what good it would do to compare?
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  #3  
Old 10-13-2008, 12:35 AM
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i cannot see why you can just run a 6 cylinder ignition in parallel to your 12 coil packs,
they some times do this on v8s
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  #4  
Old 10-13-2008, 08:07 PM
88Black560SL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipplem104 View Post
So have you decided to go with the PCS and dump the mb management for engine and trans?
The only system I know of is motec. Big money. Not 100% if it is sequential ign. or injection only. I am not sure you could run two coils off of one driver. Maybe to much current. As you said it is only cosmetic. You could run coils in board say in the car or on a mount behind the motor. Then run the wires from the rear, very clean.
The 60-2 teeth thing is only different by were the gap is. I do not know what good it would do to compare?
I have not gone with the PCS yet as I am still working on installing the 129 rear, which will be nice to have because it is a higher numerical ratio and a stronger setup to handle the M120. I'd like to clear the problems with the stock setup first then work on aftermarket solutions. I also think the transmission may have a physical problem as I here a periodic tick about every 2 seconds. Speed is so low it can only be from the last stage carrier, not a good sign.

With the 722.6 trans getting the trans to be independent may be a requirement to using an aftermarket system. I can always run two independent ECUs just like MB does , but it's getting expensive.
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  #5  
Old 10-13-2008, 08:13 PM
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Roman Karpovich
 
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No problem at all.

You can run MS wasted spark with 12 ignitors in the ECU
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  #6  
Old 10-13-2008, 08:31 PM
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I wanted to say if you thing the noise is coming from the trans. Remove immediately! I have been through alot of these and there are not many things that fail that make noise. I have not heard this noise before but the main thing that fails in the transmission is the bearing between the front and rear shafts. When it fails the transmission is garbage. The planetary gears get destroyed.
Just for info if you need one, any large nag transmission will work. The bellhousing will transfer and then the only difference is the number of clutches and steels in each clutch pack.
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  #7  
Old 10-13-2008, 11:11 PM
88Black560SL
 
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Originally Posted by PUMPISH View Post
No problem at all.

You can run MS wasted spark with 12 ignitors in the ECU
Thanks Roman

I do believe that MS will be my first stab at any engine management system only because its so cheep and I'm too new at this to be playing with more expensive stuff I'm unsure of. I feel like buying one and trying it out on my ford pickup truck just to get primed.
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  #8  
Old 10-13-2008, 11:38 PM
88Black560SL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipplem104 View Post
I wanted to say if you thing the noise is coming from the trans. Remove immediately! I have been through alot of these and there are not many things that fail that make noise. I have not heard this noise before but the main thing that fails in the transmission is the bearing between the front and rear shafts. When it fails the transmission is garbage. The planetary gears get destroyed.
Just for info if you need one, any large nag transmission will work. The bellhousing will transfer and then the only difference is the number of clutches and steels in each clutch pack.
Yes I've been afraid of that but from what I've been reading this is an early 1996 version. It might just be cheaper to let it blow up and upgrade to a 98+ version. I don't think its the bearing between the two shafts because its too periodic and too slow. But it doesn't sound like anything good. I cant even take a look at it for a while because my truck is now stuck on the lift. But hopefully this weekend I will get some help (need a person with brains) so I can go under while someone operates it through the gears.
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  #9  
Old 10-14-2008, 01:04 AM
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I was reading about megasquirt and it seems that you would have to run two computers to run the v12. Seems to me that your starting to not be so cheap anymore. Also how accurate is the timing on that setup. Does not seem worth it to me.
The Tec3 can run your car well and set up is so easy. If you can wire it up and get a trigger wheel on it. Then you can get the tuning done.
If you buy everything to run the car as a complete kit you would only be looking at 2500-3000 dollars. The tech support is really good also. People actually answer the phone and return your phone calls.
I paid under 2000 for mine with just the ecu package and a crank wheel and sensor. I used factory sensors for everything else. My map table is a little off but everything else works great. I would probably get a gm map sensor to start over again. I am going to have to anyway. I was probably at 2200-2300 running.
I had never done tuning on a stangalone before I got it and it was cake.
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  #10  
Old 10-15-2008, 08:23 PM
88Black560SL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipplem104 View Post
I was reading about megasquirt and it seems that you would have to run two computers to run the v12. Seems to me that your starting to not be so cheap anymore. Also how accurate is the timing on that setup. Does not seem worth it to me.
The Tec3 can run your car well and set up is so easy. If you can wire it up and get a trigger wheel on it. Then you can get the tuning done.
If you buy everything to run the car as a complete kit you would only be looking at 2500-3000 dollars. The tech support is really good also. People actually answer the phone and return your phone calls.
I paid under 2000 for mine with just the ecu package and a crank wheel and sensor. I used factory sensors for everything else. My map table is a little off but everything else works great. I would probably get a gm map sensor to start over again. I am going to have to anyway. I was probably at 2200-2300 running.
I had never done tuning on a stangalone before I got it and it was cake.
It does seem to me MS is the cheepest solution even if I have to buy 2. All the systems I've reviewed to the best of my understanding seem to indicate 8 cyl max or 12 cyl wasted spark. Roman seems to be of a different opinion. I think the MS is a good way to start out. Then when I know what Im doing I can use anything.
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  #11  
Old 10-16-2008, 02:16 AM
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MSII can run up to a V16 easily, http://www.kitcentral.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=printview&t=1664&start=15 is a bit of a thread about it, Google V12 megasquirt and there are tons of write ups including a V12 jag youtube clip, Most seem to have opted for 2 V6 EDIS ignition moduels for spark but i think as roman said u can do it with a COP setup.

What ever hapens should be interesting and allow for alot more later down the track using MS.....ie supercharger i doubt turbos will fit . Tho if you do start to use MS u ll have to get a aftermarket TCU like a Powertrain solutions one to run your auto, or even better dump the crappy auto and get a 6speed manual from like a 1997+ BMW which can handle like 900hp so plently of room for improvement

Last edited by Bluefang; 10-16-2008 at 03:11 AM.
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  #12  
Old 10-16-2008, 07:47 AM
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Roman Karpovich
 
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[quote=whipplem104;1992415]I was reading about megasquirt and it seems that you would have to run two computers to run the v12. quote]

You dont need 2 ecu for running wasted spark V12 with MS.

MS has 8 spark outputs wich makes you can run wasted spark up to 16cyl.

You can run 12 stock coils with 12 ms ignitors fireing wasted spark
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  #13  
Old 10-16-2008, 10:27 AM
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Well I did search some more and it does seem as though that will work as Roman says. I read on a 6 cyl. how to run two coils per drive in wasted spark and if the unit has 6 or more drivers then this should work as long as there is enough room for the circuits to be added. The whole two units per one engine never sounded like a good idea. Trying to get them in sink unless they were capable of doing it via a communication seemed risky. You could rip a motor apart if it was firing one bank slightly off from the other.
Good luck.
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  #14  
Old 10-16-2008, 11:35 AM
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Roman Karpovich
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipplem104 View Post
Well I did search some more and it does seem as though that will work as Roman says. I read on a 6 cyl. how to run two coils per drive in wasted spark and if the unit has 6 or more drivers then this should work as long as there is enough room for the circuits to be added. The whole two units per one engine never sounded like a good idea. Trying to get them in sink unless they were capable of doing it via a communication seemed risky. You could rip a motor apart if it was firing one bank slightly off from the other.
Good luck.

it works very well, we have sevearal bmw750 V12 running MS here in sweden

We going to offer plug and play MS units for motronic very soon!
BMW, Audi, Volvo.....
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  #15  
Old 10-16-2008, 11:46 AM
88Black560SL
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Thank You Gentlemen

You have all answered alot of good questions. This has been a most valuble thread.
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