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  #1  
Old 11-17-2008, 12:27 PM
whipplem104's Avatar
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722.6 5-speed conversion

Well I am getting really close to having this be 100%. I have dialed in most of the shift points and am not having any major problems. I just talked to PCS and when time is permitting they are going to get the speed sensors set up. This will basically make the thing work flawlessly. Right now I am not having any problems but there is always the potential without gear recognition. With gear recognition it will operate with almost the same premise that Mercedes does as far as completing gear changes and limp modes.
I am using the small nag transmission with no power holding problems due to the shift firmness under load. And with a 3.27 rear end I run at 2200 rpm at 60 mph in 5th gear.
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  #2  
Old 11-17-2008, 03:45 PM
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nice work mate, all i have to do now is make sure that the 722.6 will bolt up to my M117 engine, and ofcourse save alot of money But it is great to hear that your progressing well
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  #3  
Old 11-17-2008, 07:25 PM
88Black560SL
 
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As you are well aware I'm looking into this myself.

I had pointed out to PCS that if wheel speed, throttle position and engine RPM became available over the CAN, the unit would be plug and play for me. You can probably get away without engine RPM and use N2 speed from the internal sensor (close enough).

Between the optional wire harness supplied by PCS and MB shifter harness 129 540 88 34, which I am holding in my hand the wiring would be done. Wheel speed is the biggest issue as the transmission has no output speed sensor on its own.

Those intending on putting this trans into an earlier car with am M117 will also be faced with the wheel speed sensor issue. If the car is equipt with a single ABS wheel in the diff your in luck. If not you are probably best to put a single toothed wheel on the drive shaft. For the speedometer you will also need a toothed wheel. For my 560SL I will need a 4 toothed wheel on the drive shaft to get my speedo working.

For my 560SL V12 since the car did not come with wheel speed sensors and I need 1 for each wheel, I mounted toothed wheels inboard on the CV flanges. I am also now making up speed sensor supports to mount on the SL600 diff side bearing retainers.

The first attached picture are the toothed wheels I had made for the CV flanges. The second picture is a very preliminary CAD drawing of the sensor support. You actually cut it in half to get 2 sensor supports. The real one will most likely be a 4 part weldment and then cut in two as I think a fully machined one will cost too much.

In a few short weeks I will be verifying if the 722.6 from the SL600 will bolt up to the 1986 M117. Both are out of the car sitting on my shop floor. But the 86 M117 has a trans on it and its buried.
Attached Thumbnails
722.6 5-speed conversion-timing-wheels.jpg   722.6 5-speed conversion-wheel-speed-sensors-adaptor.jpg  
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  #4  
Old 11-17-2008, 07:40 PM
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Actually once you get a speed input for the tcu thats all you need. The tcu has a programable output for the speed output. I am using a stock 400e speedo which uses a the same input as the sl.
Yes you are correct that you need a speed sensor either the abs sensor or one on the driveshaft or wheel speed. Any configuration can be used as it is just programmed.
The problem with the CAN is that you also need to send messages back to the other control units. This is the reason you could not just stick a old style trans or a stick shift in. The rest of the computers would go into limp mode. Also mercedes loves to change this stuff from year to year and car to car as they do updates. The demand is never going to be there for PCS to do this for the mercedes. My hope is that we can get the internal speed sensors set up for proper gear recognition and the additional controls that will give.
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Old 11-17-2008, 09:37 PM
88Black560SL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipplem104 View Post
Actually once you get a speed input for the tcu thats all you need. The tcu has a programable output for the speed output. I am using a stock 400e speedo which uses a the same input as the sl.
Yes you are correct that you need a speed sensor either the abs sensor or one on the driveshaft or wheel speed. Any configuration can be used as it is just programmed.
The problem with the CAN is that you also need to send messages back to the other control units. This is the reason you could not just stick a old style trans or a stick shift in. The rest of the computers would go into limp mode. Also mercedes loves to change this stuff from year to year and car to car as they do updates. The demand is never going to be there for PCS to do this for the mercedes. My hope is that we can get the internal speed sensors set up for proper gear recognition and the additional controls that will give.
It looked to me like you could use N2 and N3 and get away with it but wheel speed and engine speed are also needed to get the accurate picture.

I understand PCS's dilemma but I would think things like engine speed, wheel speed and throttle position are very basic. I would think these would stay the same, but then MB might change them just to piss us reverse engineers off. I did find some CAN bus reverse engineering software that would crack the CAN code in a heart beat but it's $5000.00

As far as sending messages back to the other control units I am aware that it does that, but I'm not to certain of the outcome of things if they dont get the signal. I had my ETC disconnected and the car seemed to start and run fine at least in park. There was no indication of the engine being in limp home mode. The ETC for the 722.6 sends out the following signals to the rest of the car over the CAN.

Conversion (internal torque calculation)
Engaged gear
TC lockup status
Transmission overload protection requirement
Kickdown
Limp home mode.
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  #6  
Old 11-17-2008, 09:51 PM
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The problem with n2 and n3 is they are not input output shaft speeds. They are planetary carrier speeds. They change speed depending on what gear you are in. This is the problem with getting them programmed. The tcu will have to look at different speed sensors in different gears for gear recognition. Then it would have to calculate driveshaft speed from that. Not that this is not all possible it is just that there is only so much room in the tcu for more programming and it is set up for many other applications. We will get there but PCS needs some more customer demand. ]
In the mean time it will work with minimal inputs.
For your application you can just piggy back the signal you need from the engine management.
And yes it will start and idle and drive, but I am pretty sure that you would not get full throttle. If it does work that would be great. I will check it out on my wagon. Maybe other than some codes everything will work. I will check back on this.
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  #7  
Old 11-17-2008, 11:21 PM
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Well Roncallo you are correct. The rest of the computers did not care about the factory tcu being unplugged. I just unplugged the output harness to the transmission and left the other harness plugged in. I would assume that nothing else would change if it was completely removed.
I had full throttle only no gear changes.
I will check codes tomorrow to see if anything cared to much.
This means this could possibly be used on factory 722.6 cars. Also PCS has set up can for the chrysler shifter. Might be the same who knows for the newer shifters? I will do some homework on this.
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  #8  
Old 11-18-2008, 01:18 AM
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One thing i have been meaning to ask you Whipplem104 is how does it go been manually shifted. How fast are the shifts from when u press the button/paddle to been in the next gear? As quick as a manual car where u have to put the clutch in etc, or does it have a delay of like a second or 2?

Roncallo i am going to be IMMENSELY interested in the ability to bolt a 722.6 up to a M117 engine so it will be great to hear about how that goes. Some times i just dream of having the time, money, knowledge and work space to work on the cars like you seem to be able too. Have you gotten any further in deciding if you are going to use a different brain with the V12 like Megasquirt, or are you hoping to keep it with the stock computer?
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  #9  
Old 11-18-2008, 06:28 PM
88Black560SL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whipplem104 View Post
Well Roncallo you are correct. The rest of the computers did not care about the factory tcu being unplugged. I just unplugged the output harness to the transmission and left the other harness plugged in. I would assume that nothing else would change if it was completely removed.
I had full throttle only no gear changes.
I will check codes tomorrow to see if anything cared to much.
This means this could possibly be used on factory 722.6 cars. Also PCS has set up can for the chrysler shifter. Might be the same who knows for the newer shifters? I will do some homework on this.
I was very surprised at this myself. So far I've managed to get the car into Transmission limp home regularly but never engine limp home mode, which I believe for me is shutting off 6 cylinders.

I don't quite understand what good the shifter position over the CAN is. According to my book the ETC receives the shifter position directly.
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  #10  
Old 11-18-2008, 06:39 PM
88Black560SL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefang View Post
One thing i have been meaning to ask you Whipplem104 is how does it go been manually shifted. How fast are the shifts from when u press the button/paddle to been in the next gear? As quick as a manual car where u have to put the clutch in etc, or does it have a delay of like a second or 2?

Roncallo i am going to be IMMENSELY interested in the ability to bolt a 722.6 up to a M117 engine so it will be great to hear about how that goes. Some times i just dream of having the time, money, knowledge and work space to work on the cars like you seem to be able too. Have you gotten any further in deciding if you are going to use a different brain with the V12 like Megasquirt, or are you hoping to keep it with the stock computer?
Getting the car running is of primary importance now. Which means overhauling the trans, fitting the rear end and getting shortened shafts. I haven't heard from my drive shaft guy yet so I may be back to cutting and welding them myself.

After it's running, I will do a little bit of testing and then it's time to get the AC working again. Then I will try to install the ESP system from the SL600. If I am successful installing the ESP system the MB computers will have to stay as they chat to each other. Otherwise removing the MB computers now becomes an option that I may consider especially if the MB units give me trouble.
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  #11  
Old 11-18-2008, 07:28 PM
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The shifts are as fast as you want them to be and as hard. For full throttle shifts you just have to dial in the right time to start a shift. So for instance if you are making a lot of power and start a shift at redline you will rev pass because you cannot shift fast enough. But if you set the full throttle shift point several hundred rpm below redline then the shift will basically occur at that point. We are talking in the hundredths of a second. Right now without the speed sensors working I have a delay set up between shifts. So the tcu has to wait a certain amount of time after one shift to start the next.
This is only a problem if you want to shift several gears quickly. For instance in a down shift under heavy breaking. This will be rectified soon. I do not have paddle shifters yet but I will when I get some other things done. Right now I manually shift with the shifter. The response is instant.

Roncollo, the reason the CAN is an issue is for the newer cars. Model year 2000 and newer the shifter is sending all data via CAN. My point about it is that the PCS unit can be retrofitted into a standard mercedes with a 722.6 from the factory if limp mode is not a problem. Then on the post 1999 cars would still need can for shifter info. The shifter cannot be removed as they are part of drive authorization. I will do some testing on this when I get a chance.
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  #12  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:34 PM
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This has me very excited and giggling like a schoolgirl (note: I am not a schoolgirl ). This box, plus paddle shifters and TCU are almost a definite for my blown M104 190E project!
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  #13  
Old 11-22-2008, 02:33 AM
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I think I have a lead on a 722.6 as well as shifter.




Oh man, paddles on my wagon would be insane.
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  #14  
Old 11-22-2008, 08:18 AM
88Black560SL
 
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If I can find a way to put this trans on my stock 560SL then needless to say it will no longer be stock. I believe that trans would improve the fuel economy significantly with it's lockup converter overdrive. And being able to switch to from Winter to Standard first gear start mode would also be a plus for performance.

If anyone is interested in going in on a group buy for wheel speed rings and sensor supports like the ones I made for my car let me know. Most of us would probably just want a speedo and shaft speed sensor mounted at the end of the trans. That will have to wait until my V-12 project is done.
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  #15  
Old 11-23-2008, 12:54 PM
88Black560SL
 
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What I have found so far

While doing a little research on this I was looking at the picture of the torque converter housing on EPC for my transmission which is a 722.621 from a 1996 SL600. The picture shows a cutout for an ignition pickup which my trans does not have. I thought all cars with the 722.6 had the ME fuel injection and ignition system and that none of them would have this cutout. While the picture is showing the cutout I know if I order that part number it wont have it because mine doesn't. Does any one know which cars used the 722.6 trans and used this pickup.

I also found that the Early M120 used the same flex plate as the M117. The later ones used a different integrated flex plate, ring gear and 60-2 toothed wheel. My guess is the only real difference is the 60-2 toothed wheel and that the torque converter from a 722.6 will bolt to the earlier M117 flywheel. I also already know that the 722.6 shifter from the 1996 SL600 fits perfectly into the 107 without mods.

It's starting to look pretty good but still not a firm yes.
Attached Thumbnails
722.6 5-speed conversion-clipboard01.jpg  
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