Thinking out loud: M103 + LPG + Turbo - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Deni · #1 06-02-2009, 04:33 AM

Hi,

Currently I have the car in my sig:

1992 Mercedes 190D 2.5 turbodiesel, full load screw adjusted about 1 1/4 turns (more fuel) and LPG injection.

My car now does the 1/4 mile in about 16.7s @ 84.8 mph (using gtech) and about 8.8 sec 0-60mph.

Obviously I want more power.

I cannot add more LPG as it will start detonating. Maybe an intercooler or water injection will allow me to add a little bit more but this is a 22/1 compression engine so the ammount of LPG that can be injected is very limited.

In order to get the extra fuel is go the very expensive for me way of shipping the injection pump to Finland and have installed 7 mm plungers (this way I'll have more fuel than I'll ever use). Only the swap and tuning of the IP costs about $1300, so quite expensive. Then I'll have to find a larger turbo and add a large intercooler.

I can go the other route:

Either a 3.0 liter m104 24 valve with cis-e or m103 and turbo charge it.

The reason I want to keep the cis-e is that it seems the easiest way to swap engines.

So far I'm liking the m103 because of it's reliability (this is a daily driver for me).

I also like how with limited modification the exhaust manifold from an om om603 can be bolted onto the m103, so I can also use also the turbo from the om603.

What did AMG use for the m103 3.6 liter? Can I directly swap the crank of an om603 3.5 liter turbodiesel or do I need the rods as well? What power can be expected from a simple crank swap (if possible)?

I'm aiming for about 200-220 HP engine.

The engine will be fueled by LPG. Petrol will be used only for starting up, warming up the engine and if I run out of LPG.

JayRash · #2 06-02-2009, 05:21 AM

SO, have u checked the crazy turbo D 190's on youtube?
how hard is it to go crazy on Diesel turbo engine make some insane power out of it?

i have no idea what is needed to reach this but do search youtube and check those mad w202's diesel

Deni · #3 06-02-2009, 06:15 AM

Yes, those are the crazy Fins

.

Building power with these diesel seems to be a straight forward business.

Modified IP is the heart of the system. Stock om602/603 injection pump has 5.5 mm plungers. The guys in Finland install 7 mm plungers.

Large intercooler (need to remove the A/C) and very large Turbo (huge turbo lag).

These engines are said to support up to 75hp/cylinder without touching the internals.

But, still huge costs (at least for me).

Here in Albania, large petrol engines are not popular because of fuel consumption. I think I can get the m103 or maybe a m104 for 40 or 50% of the price I can sell my engine.

JayRash · #4 06-02-2009, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deni

Yes, those are the crazy Fins

.

Building power with these diesel seems to be a straight forward business.

Modified IP is the heart of the system. Stock om602/603 injection pump has 5.5 mm plungers. The guys in Finland install 7 mm plungers.

Large intercooler (need to remove the A/C) and very large Turbo (huge turbo lag).

These engines are said to support up to 75hp/cylinder without touching the internals.

But, still huge costs (at least for me).

Here in Albania, large petrol engines are not popular because of fuel consumption. I think I can get the m103 or maybe a m104 for 40 or 50% of the price I can sell my engine.

ya but if fuel price is an issue, well those M103's are known to drink alot of it unless very properly tuned, and thats in stock form. but am sure its more than worth it when u drive it.

Its probably one of the sweetest engines you can drive when boosted, power is simply every where, just keep the turbo size on the small side, and dont go for too high a booost. some 7 psi- 8 psi should see u in the 300 hp flywheel range.
unless u go Stand alone, then u might push that even further on this boost level

Deni · #5 06-02-2009, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayRash

ya but if fuel price is an issue, well those M103's are known to drink alot of it unless very properly tuned, and thats in stock form. but am sure its more than worth it when u drive it.

Its probably one of the sweetest engines you can drive when boosted, power is simply every where, just keep the turbo size on the small side, and dont go for too high a booost. some 7 psi- 8 psi should see u in the 300 hp flywheel range.
unless u go Stand alone, then u might push that even further on this boost level

My current car consumes about 9 liters /100km (26 US mpg) in mixed driving. The diesel that I get, one of the cheapest here is about 90 cent $ per liter. LPG is about half that.

So the petrol engine has to consume more than 18 liters /100km (13 US mpg) to be more expensive than my current car.

Will a m103 consume more than 13 US mpg in mixed driving in a w201 with a 5 spd manual?

JayRash · #6 06-02-2009, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deni

My current car consumes about 9 liters /100km (26 US mpg) in mixed driving. The diesel that I get, one of the cheapest here is about 90 cent $ per liter. LPG is about half that.

So the petrol engine has to consume more than 18 liters /100km (13 US mpg) to be more expensive than my current car.

Will a m103 consume more than 13 US mpg in mixed driving in a w201 with a 5 spd manual?

My country is all mountains and in turbo form i never managed to better abt 13MPG, and if i am to really go at it i would drop to abt 6MPG, but thats cause i was using the CIS alone to flow fore fuel, if u go with extra injectors am sure u'll almost do 18mpg if u drive it off boost.

RBYCC · #7 06-02-2009, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deni

My current car consumes about 9 liters /100km (26 US mpg) in mixed driving. The diesel that I get, one of the cheapest here is about 90 cent $ per liter. LPG is about half that.

So the petrol engine has to consume more than 18 liters /100km (13 US mpg) to be more expensive than my current car.

Will a m103 consume more than 13 US mpg in mixed driving in a w201 with a 5 spd manual?

My M103-12V twin turbo @ about 10psi boost in a 1988 300CE will average about 16-17mpg with 20mpg+ on the highway.

Trick is to retain the CIS-E that is set to stock specifications.
No mods to the CIS-E or the EZL so the engine functions as if it doesn't know it has a turbo....until the boost comes in.

I use two additional injectors controlled by a Split Second stand alone additional injector controller.

It's a great setup as you have "two" engines...

Last dyno pull was 302 torque at the rear wheels on a load dyno @ 7psi.

JayRash · #8 06-02-2009, 08:24 AM

Yup Ed, my exact point
The way ur car is setup will retain the stock economy up to a point,
The way my car was setup, well it was guzzler

Deni · #9 06-02-2009, 09:00 AM

hmmm well setting it up might be a challenge. I will use lpg, and lpg will use it'sown injection and measuring system.

Is the om603 3.5 liter crank shaft a direct install into the m103 and increase power?

How much boost would a m103 to make about 220-240 hp? Can I just use water injection instead of an intercooler?

RBYCC · #10 06-02-2009, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deni

hmmm well setting it up might be a challenge. I will use lpg, and lpg will use it'sown injection and measuring system.

Is the om603 3.5 liter crank shaft a direct install into the m103 and increase power?

How much boost would a m103 to make about 220-240 hp? Can I just use water injection instead of an intercooler?

220-240 RWP is possible with 6 - 6.5 lbs boost.

The enrichment is the most critical thing to work out.
You don't want detonation at any boost level or else you'll quickly damage the motor.

Intercooler is recommended with or without water injection.

I'm currently researching a water to air IC.

JayRash · #11 06-02-2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deni

hmmm well setting it up might be a challenge. I will use lpg, and lpg will use it'sown injection and measuring system.

Is the om603 3.5 liter crank shaft a direct install into the m103 and increase power?

How much boost would a m103 to make about 220-240 hp? Can I just use water injection instead of an intercooler?

as ED said before me, 240 is do able i would say 8 psi should get u there.
as for the 3.5 crank, well the M104 AMG 3.6 uses that 3.5D crank, but i dont know if its a direct bolt.

stay away from water injection unless u really have to. it will increase wear inside the engine, will break old tired piston rings as it does increase the internal pressure of the combustion chamber.
if u still want to use it try ethanol, thou less effective as a heat remover than water. but since it burns it will not increase stress on the rings.

Deni · #12 06-02-2009, 01:32 PM

I was thinking about crank power

.

As for fueling, I think the LPG systems can fumigate a lot of fuel into the engine and the LPG has a higher octane rating than petrol

Deni · #13 06-03-2009, 02:20 AM

I've been reading a little bit more into LPG injections.

The conclusion is that a Multi Point Gas Injection is the least I have to use in a turbocharged engine.

The Multi Point Gas Injection is a very good system when it comes to fuel economy and power as it is the same as a stand alone fuel injection system.

On the downside it needs some inputs.

Does the cis-e of the m103 have these systems:

Oxygen (Lambda) sensor signal(s)

Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) signal

RPM (tach) signal

Manifold ambient pressure (MAP)

What I was thinking is that I can run on petrol with the cis-e just for starting and warm up, then switch to SA LPG.

JayRash · #14 06-03-2009, 07:13 AM

well the cis does have RPM, and O2 sensor, but u need to fit a tps sensor and MAP

Deni · #15 06-03-2009, 07:22 AM

How difficult is it to fit the tps sensor and MAP?

MAP seems pretty straight forward, but the tps is confusing.

As far as I understood the cis-e has a throttle plate position sensor. Is it used for the same purpose?

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