Yes, but the pictures on EPC are not always representative of the real part. I've been tricked already. The M120 has a detacheable converter housing. But I indeed would not be surprised if the M117 and M119 transmissions were sharing the same design, and accomodate both M117 and M119 bolt patterns. I saw that happening on earlier models with the same clutch bell fitting both the iron M117 blocks and early alloy M117 blocks while the bolt pattern is slightly different. They just made some holes larger to accomodate both.

OM616, do not take an iron M117 block for the bolt pattern, as later alloy M117 (560s) have a different one. Try to get an engine out of a W126 or an r107

I have an M117 Engine and Trans sitting in my garage. The M120 is completely different than the M117. I had them side by side. The M119 and M117 appear to be the same and I herd they do line up. The M120 appears to be like the M113 from pictures.

What's the best way to measure a bolt circle without a CMM machine?

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John Roncallo

Roncallo, I saw the M120 trans has some kind of a detacheable converter housing. In your opinion, would it be possible to bolt it to an adapter plate that would bolt on a manual trans on the other side?

It sounds like you guys have a good idea of what engines you want to use. IMO the next step would be to identify which engines can use the same transmission, as in it will actually bolt on.

This will determine how many different bolt pattern families need to be considered. One option would be to have slightly larger holes and use off-set bushings, or just have larger holes. The important holes are the dowel pin holes. The bolt holes can even be oval, like a slot.

To get measurements;

Engines that have a Trans Spacer plate that bolts to the engine and is between the engine and the trans are perfect for this kind of work, as the plate can be removed and the holes measured in a different location. We would need to know the crank depth from either the block or the Trans side of the spacer for each engine model as well.

Engines without a spacer plate are a little tougher. Any Ideas are good.

I have a Getrag 265 bell housing on its way for a OM61X adaptation so I will have its measurements.

How consistent are the starter locations between the desired engines?

My plan is to have a SLS or SLA rapid prototype made for the pattern taking shrinkage into consideration. I use Pro-E for modeling, however any CAD assistance helps. We only want to do this once, and no woopseys!

It is not uncommon to have different part numbers for what looks like the same part, as the change may have been made to the internals or as minor as a rev change on a print, as it is easy to miss the rev change but a different part number is almost edieit proof.

This is not going to happen over night, so lets take the time and do some research as to compatibility and such.

Also, yes the flywheel and clutch assembly need to be considered during the design. lets see what we have to work with and go from there.

Dave

Since the M117 and M119 share the trans bolt pattern, it would make sense to start with the V8 blocks, I think. I believe the cranks are pretty much the same other than stroke too.

Here is a good read on adapting a manual trans to a Mercedes V8 engine: Any interest in a manual 6speed for your 400/500e?

Page 6, Reiner says that the bolt pattern between the M117 and M119 differ by one bolt. There are also pictures of a Getrag mated to a M119 engine via an adaptator plate.

Hears a picture of the M119 engine and 722.3 trans as well as a couple of pictures of the 722.6 trans for the M120 engine. The adapter plate concept is an idea if you could get the depth correct.

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John Roncallo

I want a 4 or 5 speed manual behind my M117. Toploader of some sort. a T6 would be nice

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Are you suggesting using the automatic trans Bell Housing and making an adaptor to mate a manual trans to it? That thought has crossed my mind with the 61X project, but I have not looked into it.

So basically the M119 and M120 can use the same trans? what about the M117?

I have been really busy so I have only briefly looked at the history references above, but I did notice that those whom were testing the waters to make a "kit" were doing so on the side sort of thing. I am on my own and am looking for work. I do not care what trans on what engine as long as it can be done at a cost that enough people will go for to make it make sense to do.

I don't even care if someone else does the design work and all I do is make the molds, get them pored, and machine them.

One benefit of casting the old fashioned way is that different castings can be made cheaper than if the die casting process were used. The only additional costs would be the patterns, as a new sand mold needs to be made for each part that is casted, so different parts would not be a big deal as long as the patterns were made, and the pattern costs would be spread over the parts sold.

Some parts came for the 61X to Getrag 265 today, and there is a 265 bell housing on the way as well for measurement.

No, the M117 and M119 may use the same bell housing with some differences in the pattern for one bolt. The 120 looks completely different. That's not to say it can't be done to accomodate the M120 also, but it would be more complicated.

You should post your idea on Benzworld, mainly in the 126 forum, but also r107, AMG etc. I guess this is were you will get most of your buyers from. So it will help you test waters and also get some ideas from people there.

48hp wanted to develop a kit and is well introduced there. I guess he can help you.

The M120 is completely different than the 117/119. The M129 engine has the first 1.5" of the bell housing built into the engine block. therefor this bell housing would be shorter. I believe the M120 and M113 may be the same. So probably 2 solutions would be required to cover most V-8 and V-12 engines.

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John Roncallo

So one housing for the M117/M119, and another for the M120/M113.

I am not at all familiar with these engines, so I am of little use without having the transmissions and engines to see what will/could mate to what.

I sketched up some ideas for a generic bell housing for each "family" of patterns. The design would take into consideration the different transmissions that are desired and would have an extra thick trans mounting surface that is large enough so it could be machined bolt to any of the transmissions on the list and to match what ever depth was needed. In addition, there would be bosses for a Yoke Pivot and an External Slave cylinder, as well as allowances for a hydraulic throughout bearing. This design concept would require more machining, but it would reduce the number of different patterns to accommodate different transmissions for the same engine family.

With a generic trans face designed, all that would need to be changed to fit other engines would be the engine interface.

I like the separate bell housing for the M120 trans. That looks like a nice piece.

I have the Getrag 265 bell housing and first impression is that it is so funky that it would be wrong to use it. The trans to bell housing mounting is very simple so mounting it to a different bell housing would be fairly easy. The best way is to make a new 265 bell housing that fits the engine.

Does any one have a bell housing from a Tremec 6 speed?

They might supply drawings if you email. I have the ones from a 5-speed.

I sent an e-mail today. I am also watching a T56 bell housing on e-bay.

I wonder how different the trans to bell housing interface is between the 5 speed and 6 speed?

I found the T5 from another forum. From what I've read, the T5 is different from the T56 but I'm not sure by how much.
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=142381
Apparently it's the outer dimensions.
http://peverill.org/files/Volvo/T5AdapterPlate.PDF