Non MB trans to MB engines - Page 45 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Frank Reiner · #**661** 01-15-2020, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cth350

Good question and testable in theory. Though it's not the proximity of the flywheel, but the proximity of the pressure plate. The stock BMW flywheel is pretty similar in construction, but I can't speak to relative distances between the windows and the pressure plate lurking near them.

Not that either Dave or I have the right test equipment for it.

-CTH

Note that in the BMW installation, the mass of the flywheel is on the opposite side of the trigger wheel attaching flange rather than under the windows. There is air under the windows, not iron.

rwd4evr · #**662** 01-15-2020, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cth350

You lost me here. Why wouldn't the goal be to take their basic mount plate for the SBF or SBC and overly via CNC the bolt pattern for the benz block such that center of the input shaft lines up with the center of the benz crank?

They already have the SBC & SBF patterns and know where the input shaft goes. What they probably don't have would be where the benz cast iron block gets bolted to the back plate. This is basically what I described a few weeks ago on update 631.

-CTH

That's exactly what I'm saying. put the Ford pattern on a piece of 1/4" plate(which is an option for the mid plates they sell), with a hole that will align the trans perfectly(it has the protrusion on it). There is no way to align it positively on the block until a ring or tabs are added. It's easier to transfer the bolt holes from the trans bell than from the block as well. The very intelligent early Benz engineers used a centered round giant dowel pin like register around the perimeter of the bellhousing like an sae housing, so it's automatically centered and easy enough to determine centerline of the crank, instead of the stupid dowel pin arrangement that every other manufacturer uses. If we had accurate cad (or even mechanical)drawings of the bolt patterns they can do whatever you want. I don't have them and have never found them.

On a side note I just put a 10.5" sbc clutch pressure plate and flywheel in an m119 auto bellhousing last night. It just fits. I believe the 11" has a larger pressure plate assembly and it won't fit im fairly certain.

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OM616 · #**663** 01-15-2020, 04:01 PM

Conflict resolved.

Roncallo · #**664** 01-15-2020, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Reiner

JR:

Section 01.7-220/1,2,3 of the M116/117.96x FSM
These are the pages that deal with the replacement and/or installation of an intermediate plate on the aluminum block engines.

Thanks

OM616 · #**665** 01-16-2020, 02:09 PM

Is there any interest in a M117/119 adapter "blank" that only has the block bolt patterns and crank seal area machined into it? It would have a large OD flange which would allow one to layout the trans pattern of their choice and then cut out the OD to the shape of the bell housing?

The blank would have a web in the center area (where the main seal is), with a centering hole bored into it for referencing the center of the crank / trans which would be cut out when done. The adapter would be 1 inch thick aluminum.

The user would still have to come up with a flywheel / starter solution but it seems that everyone is stalled on the adapter and I thought that CTH may be able to sell a couple "blank" flanges to help offset his costs to date.

It would not be a big deal to put a SBC pattern in it as well ( the SBF pattern has too many conflicts with the M117/119 pattern) and I think that if a 153 tooth SBC flywheel is use that the starter mount could be designed into the adapter plate, but I have not looked at it at that level of detail yet to know all the considerations that need to be accounted for, and it would add cost.

This is just an idea and I thought I would see if there is any interest. Just a warning, this would not be cheep.

rwd4evr · #**666** 01-18-2020, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OM616

Is there any interest in a M117/119 adapter "blank" that only has the block bolt patterns and crank seal area machined into it? It would have a large OD flange which would allow one to layout the trans pattern of their choice and then cut out the OD to the shape of the bell housing?

The blank would have a web in the center area (where the main seal is), with a centering hole bored into it for referencing the center of the crank / trans which would be cut out when done. The adapter would be 1 inch thick aluminum.

The user would still have to come up with a flywheel / starter solution but it seems that everyone is stalled on the adapter and I thought that CTH may be able to sell a couple "blank" flanges to help offset his costs to date.

It would not be a big deal to put a SBC pattern in it as well ( the SBF pattern has too many conflicts with the M117/119 pattern) and I think that if a 153 tooth SBC flywheel is use that the starter mount could be designed into the adapter plate, but I have not looked at it at that level of detail yet to know all the considerations that need to be accounted for, and it would add cost.

This is just an idea and I thought I would see if there is any interest. Just a warning, this would not be cheep.

Do you have the m119 pattern dead nuts accurate with the dowel pin holes? The bolt holes are easy enough but without the dowel pins absolutely . 001" accurate it useless.

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3doghouse · #**667** 01-19-2020, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwd4evr

Do you have the m119 pattern dead nuts accurate with the dowel pin holes? The bolt holes are easy enough but without the dowel pins absolutely . 001" accurate it useless.

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Actually, this is a great way to do it, and the plate bolted to the engine does not have to be within that tight of a tolerance.

Essentially, the plate becomes the new "back of engine," and you use a dial indicator to locate the bellhousing within spec, and drill/ream new bellhousing-to-engine dowels into the plate.

Doing it this way ensures that the bellhousing is located within tolerance, and I wouldn't trust any adapter to align properly without checking it with a dial indicator anyway.

rwd4evr · #**668** 01-19-2020, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3doghouse

Actually, this is a great way to do it, and the plate bolted to the engine does not have to be within that tight of a tolerance.

Essentially, the plate becomes the new "back of engine," and you use a dial indicator to locate the bellhousing within spec, and drill/ream new bellhousing-to-engine dowels into the plate.

Doing it this way ensures that the bellhousing is located within tolerance, and I wouldn't trust any adapter to align properly without checking it with a dial indicator anyway.

How do you go about drilling/reaming new dowel pin holes? Puting an at least partially assembled engine on a drill press or mill sounds like fun. That's not a hand done operation.

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Tony H · #**669** 01-19-2020, 04:36 PM

I think creating a new interface flange would be difficult and costly-at least in my situation which is the iron block M116/117. Others might be different. I'm sure there is more M117/119 interest out there to make it more worthwhile. My hopeful path of least resistance would be an adaptor flange to the Auto bell. I already have a flywheel-hopefully the 9.5" clutch will suffice. I don't plan on smoky burnouts. I would use a hydraulic TO bearing.

OM616 · #**670** 01-19-2020, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3doghouse

Actually, this is a great way to do it, and the plate bolted to the engine does not have to be within that tight of a tolerance.

Essentially, the plate becomes the new "back of engine," and you use a dial indicator to locate the bellhousing within spec, and drill/ream new bellhousing-to-engine dowels into the plate.

Doing it this way ensures that the bellhousing is located within tolerance, and I wouldn't trust any adapter to align properly without checking it with a dial indicator anyway.

You pretty much have the idea. The tooling web in the center (that gets cut out) is intended to be used to find the center of the plate for machining the trans dowel pins and bolt holes.

As was mentioned, even machining the trans holes into the plate is not something that is done "by hand", but rather by Bridgeport type machine.

Although "transfer punching" the trans holes would "get you off the island so to speak" the best way is to have a print of the trans bolt pattern and machine the trans holes using a rigid, positionally repeatable machine.

If a engineering drawing of the bell housing one intends to use is not available, then a good machine shop should be able to measure the locations of the bell housing bolts, but that process would add cost.

My thought of offering a plate with the block holes in it is based on the idea that a transmission is a lot easier to work with then an engine lol..

Roncallo · #**671** 01-20-2020, 01:43 AM

Hears a concept. Se how the MB bell housing is welded to the BMW bell housing at about 25 second into the video.

https://youtu.be/Nk1K3zhS3W8

cth350 · #**672** 01-20-2020, 09:17 AM

We built one of those early, based on a bmw bell that was shattered. We were looking something to get cast, so we could build more than one.

That welding solution of theirs as well as our casting one requires lots of careful work on alignment.

-cth

3doghouse · #**673** 01-20-2020, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwd4evr

How do you go about drilling/reaming new dowel pin holes? Puting an at least partially assembled engine on a drill press or mill sounds like fun. That's not a hand done operation.

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I didn't put mine in a drill press.

Just trying to be helpful, since I'm pretty sure I'm the only one on this thread actually running a T5 behind an M117.

I'm speaking from experience. It worked for me, but do your thing man.

OM616 · #**674** 01-20-2020, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3doghouse

I didn't put mine in a drill press.

Just trying to be helpful, since I'm pretty sure I'm the only one on this thread actually running a T5 behind an M117.

I'm speaking from experience. It worked for me, but do your thing man.

Nice

, I think I am going to go with a Saginaw 4 speed in my 500SEL when I get to it.

OM616 · #**675** 01-20-2020, 06:59 PM

I have the 420G partially bolted up to the M119 but my camera battery was dead

I made two blocks that pic up the top end block dowel and bolts and the top end trans dowel and bolts so i can still see in side as well as get my hands in there so I can sort out the clutch details.

Getting closer...