Been out of the loop for a while. Sorry for not being around. I just picked up an M119 block+crank yesterday and I should be able to slice off the tail end of it for you for mock up purposes.

This will give me a chance to compare the M117 cast iron, M117 alloy, M103 and M119 driven plates for different dimensions/interchange.

There are a bunch of hurdles to getting this project done, from front to back...
- suitable flywheeel for your motor
- suitable clutch assembly
- suitable bellhousing
- suitable transmission
- Mechanical shifter setup
- Clutch pedeal for a car that doesn't have one
- rear transmission mount (position changes based on transmission length)
- drive shaft adaptation

Did I ever send you the backplate for the either OM617 (and similar straight 6 motors) and perhaps the M100 back plate? That's one block I don't want to casually slice up.

-CTH
PS. any/all of the parts from me are yours to mess with, well, I would like to use that BMW transmission with an adapter plate, since the bell is part of the unit, but everything else is fair game.

__________________
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Good to see you are still around!! I am pretty sure I sent you my new e-mail address, I think It was the last response I sent to your e-mail.

I have not touched the BMW trans yet, but I do trip over it from time to time, lol. I was going to ruff in the bell housing to show an example of what the finished version would look like compared to a manual bell housing.

I am going to have to pull the BMW trans apart to mod the case, and figure while I am at it, see what it needs to make it useable again.

I would have to go back and review the past posts, but I think one member posted about the crank bolt pattern being the same for some engines, (don't remember which ones), so that may provide a source of OEM flywheels that can be machined to work with the M117.

I think the bell housing you sent is not for a M117 though, again, I need to go back and refresh my memory.

By back plate do you mean the trans adaptor plate? All I have is the BMW trans and the auto Bell Housing.

Let me know before you ship the block sections.

David,

The auto trans bell housing you have was from a W210 car. I believe it's for a v6 motor, making it the M112/M113.

To recap 7 pages of comments (and of course reiterate my position first ), I believe that there is no credible reason to build a special bell housing for the older straight 4, 5, 6 motors, because they have removable back plates and four speed transmissions that mate to them are both common (defined here as cheaper than buying a whole parts car) and they have detachable bell-housings through the 60s and 70s. There is a demand to adapt "better transmissions" to these motors, so the incremental cost between an off-the-shelf 4-speed and an available 5-speed or 6-speed from another make has to be "worth it". I can't picture it as being a project with a lot of money being spent per car. For instance, there's a W114+four speed car an hour from my house to be had for 750$. Building a custom adapter plate, either between the motor and the bell housing, or between a Benz bell housing and the alternative transmission is the way to go for this class of project.

There is the M100 crowd, which is a very silly bunch, were anybody looking to put a manual transmission in their M100 car is looking at spending serious money on the car for other reasons; all sorts of M100 things are just crazy expensive. The engine does have a removable back plate, which is a good starting point for a project, but there is no such thing as an M100 flywheel. Something has to be adapted to handle the torque and HP. Heck, adapting a R700 automatic transmission is a very attractive option for these guys when their transmission dies.

Then there's the cast iron M116/M117 crowd, which has an off-the-shelf four speed available, but a replacement flywheel is 1,400$ from the classic center. I have three of these transmissions but a single flywheel. That means I have two large paperweights.

The alloy M116/M117 motors are probably the most plentiful, but they suffer from having no factory support at all; no bell housings or flywheels available unless we custom fabricate something. Also, most of these cars have depreciated enough so that a full transmission upgrade kit is worth more than a good parts car making people rather tight with funds (nobody would want a transmission that costs more than the car as a whole).

The M119 is a the v8 power plant of choice in the early 90s cars, of which there are many. My 500sl would seem nicer with a six speed. Presuming the clutch pedal and shifter issues are resolvable after we figure out how to mate a 6 speed to the block and add a flywheel. In addition to the 500sl owners, the 400E and 500E owners that like to spend money on their cars will go for this (right guys?).

The last group is also large, namely the late 80s to mid-90s straight 4, 5, 6 cylinder motors that start with the M102 and M602 and go forward for about a decade. Again, there are factory transmissions and flywheels out there, but the cost of acquisition is high because we keep gobbling up what parts cars we can find (demand outstrips supply). These motors don't have a back plate nor are the transmission bell housing detachable. If an adapter plate on the block isn't feasible for these, a custom bell housing sure won't be a cost-effective item.

I agree with your proposition of setting up a subset of the kit and then taking pre-orders from people willing to put some skin in the game. My contribution so far has been to acquire a cross-section of all the factory parts that need to be fab'd or adapted to. I've only sent David the basics so far, but I have a least one of every flywheel (or driven plate as available), back plate or where necessary, block. Also transmission cores.

-CTH

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I wanted to condense these two posts and bring them up again as this is the best way to go.

After thinking about using a housing from a one piece auto trans, I have put that into the last resort file as the housing is not designed to transfer the loads via the pump bolts like the two piece auto housings are. It sounds line the M119 converter housing can be moded to fit on the M117 block, and the M116 manual flywheel can be modded to fit on all the engines of interest. If the M116 flywheel is not available for less than it can be made on a "as needed" volume, than they can be reproduced, which would allow for some fine tuning distance fitment.

Regarding transmissions, manual transmissions with a removable bell housing is first choose and almost a must, an adaptor plate can be made to bolt the trans to a modded converter housing in a very clean manner. The Getrag 265 is an overdrive trans, and it has a long, 10 spline input shaft, which makes it a very good candidate for a transplant, as it is easer to space the trans back, than to try to stretch the input shaft, or move the flywheel back. Also the T-5 and possibly T-56 would be options, given the input shaft is long enough.

Manual Transmissions with one piece bell housings are not a good choice for an engine that does not have a trans adaptor plate like the inline engines use. When a plate is used, a custom one can be made that sets the trans set back to accommodate the flywheel and clutch depth. If the block is flush with the clutch surface of the flywheel, then a spacer plate will most likely space the trans back too far so the input shaft does not engage the clutch and pilot bearing.

One method to over come this problem is to cut down the trans bell housing and weld on an adaptor plate that will bolt to a moded converter housing. A second way to address the problem is to make a custom flywheel that sticks out farther, but this moves the rotating mass farther out on the crankshaft and that can cause problems at high RPMs, and adds weight farther out, putting additional loads on the crank.

I have not seen the M116 Flywheel, nor any engine blocks or trans plates, other than the OM61X and OM60X plates. I have an OM617 auto flywheel that I can measure the dia and get a quote on the material to make a manual one. My machines will handle the gob, it will come down to price. There will not be enough volume to warrant having a CNC machine program and tooling generated.

I have a M112/113 converter housing, witch is perfect for a manual bell housing as it is very strong an has lots of room for a yoke, the depth matched the 265 housings depth as well.

I have a BMW 6-speed, (has a one piece housing) and the end of input shaft is flush with the mounting face of the trans which means the flywheel of the engine will need to stick out of the block quite a bit to allow for a spacer plate to be used, other wise, the trans will have to be cut down and an adaptor plate welded to it. I am good with that, lots of surface area to weld, but it is not as clean as a bolt on bell housing trans would be.

There are now two members who are putting in on different projects that share some commonalities, so lets get a plan of attack that addresses the common aspects first and progress from there.

The Flywheel and clutch set seems to be a common and very important part for all as the crank bolt pattern seems to be the same for the engines. I need to get a material quote, and either measure up a M116 Manual flywheel, or if someone as a print of it that would work too, as I want to be able to intelligently quote the job, I do not like surprises.

What does every one think?

___
Addition;

I just measured the OM617 auto flywheel I have and it is about 11 3/4 inches in dia. I got a price on some 4140-HT, 12 inch dia X 2 inches thick. To make a traditional manual flywheel like a SBC uses, with in the 12" OD X 2" thickness, would quote in around $1100.00 (Note: this does not include the ring gear, however one could be robbed from an auto wheel), (would set up to use a BMW M5 Disk and Pressure Plate)

I had them quote three pieces, and the price per piece did drop a touch, and if I could spread the time cost to make the tooling and the set up for each process over at least three wheels, that would help the cost per piece as well.

If the M117, 119, 120 flywheels are less than 12" dia, and I had orders for at least three, and there was nothing special about the design of the wheel, I could make them for the general public at $950.00 ea. This is without a starter Ring Gear, however, if I was sent an auto flywheel, I would remove the rear and install it on the new flywheel at no charge.

I will make a private arrangement with the gentleman that has the original M116 flywheel to use as a model, as they are rare, he would be risking it in the shipping process, and he is being generous with his contribution.

I have a part number for a converter housing for the M119, it is: A 210 271 11 01 I have a price of $400.00 ea written down, but not sure where I got it from.

After seeing how beefy the M112/113 converter housing is, I am confident that I can mod the M119 converter housing to mate to the M117 block.

hello,

long time lurker, 1st time poster. I have been following this thread with interest for multiple reasons. 1st being, i drive a w108 4.5 car for a daily. I love driving it. Yet the racer in me would love to build a pro street style w108 w/ more modern running gear and efi/forced induction. Then there is even the ideal of a 30's ford street rod that is german powered. yet i have 9 german vehicles at the current time in various stages that realistically i am no where near building another one until i get a few projects finished. Yet i can see this bell project you guys got going on benefiting me down the road.

the last piece to one of my current project car puzzles was to make a rear wheel drive bell housing to mate vw/audi engines to a common rwd tranny. The bell housing i have made will fit any vw/audi inline 4, straight 5, v6 and v8 block to a chevy t5 tranny. A chevy style t5 was chosen due to the huge after market. You can literally buy a built t5 dog box for relatively cheap. Conversely, i can go to a junk yard and get a stock tranny for under 500 bucks for mock up or light hp applications.

This is a sigh of relief when i start thinking of how i have invested more than 5k in front wheel drive trannys that still would not hold the abuse of sticky tires and big turbos. same token, when running rwd imports for drag racing, we have dropped as much as 8k on dog box gears. Yet when you run heads up racing class--money is no object in pursuit of the win. Sadly, im not made of money to build my own projects. Yet i love when i get a blank check build

with that said--im interested in the progress this takes. Yet the point that has me shaking my head is why mess with a foreign tranny at all? Mind you, im not saying this as some johnny redneck with a biased opinion against germans. I am saying this from a money/ease standpoint. I see mention of using bmw 265. That is fairly old tranny. I know at my work, we have over 500 cars in the salvage side and numerous more from the past 50 years that have been parted and shelved and we dont even have one. So availability is not as common as i'd personally like. Yet they are not as rare as hens teeth. Admittedly, they are robust in terms of foreign trannys, yet they have no where near the aftermarket support as the domestic trannys.

maybe i have missed the post that says intended purposes of the bell, yet i would think you would have 2 markets for mercedes adapters.

1) people who want to put modern mercedes powerplant into a car and have it mated to a tried and true auto. think of the street rod market. they want the newer engine--but dont want a newer electronically controlled tranny. they want to go with a straight mechanical valve body trans. in this instance, you could just take the front off a stock auto merc trans and weld it to the donor trans. custom convertor or mod the pads on stock one pending the size and done. not a whole lot really.

2) people who want to race or have a fun street car that desire a stick shift. this will vary horsepower wise from 100 hp to 500+. i think this is the hinge point and where going domestic t5 is the answer due to its ability to fit the needs of many. As a stock t5 would cover the low hp naturally aspirated group as it is good for 300 tq range. then the aftermarket steps in to cover the rest for a relatively inexpensive price. as you can get t5's in any flavor. on top of that, the t5 shares bolt patterns w/ a ton of aftermaket trans. so a lenco tranny can then be bolted up to this bell. w/ the modular design of the lenco--you can have it in a 4/5/6 speed design and have the street version hold 1200 hp and race supporting 2k+ horsepower. mind you this is cheaper to buy than what we had spent in the last import tranny we had r&d for racing a 600 hp 9 second street car. no need to reinvent the wheel if there is an adequate "fix" on the market. in our situation, we were forced to stick w/ same manufacturer of engine for trans by the rule book.

either way, im interested in watching this unfold. I think another key thing is to figure out what all bell housing interchange to very your market. Example, does the 113 bolt pattern match the 117/119? i so, then you just picked up more possible swap candidates. the wider the application fits--the better.

mike

Mike, I have T5 in the garage which some day will have a benz attached to it. So far, we're working with what's handy. For instance, the M119 I picked up a few weeks back just got a haircut this afternoon. It's now a V4 motor and a V2. Took a 4$ sawzall blade and about 30 minutes to slice through the 3rd bank of cylinders to leave the rear two crank journals intact.

I have a really crudified M112 block here that will get the same treatment after I match up the two driven plates in the morning.

If you have a spare tremec bellhousing handy that you can live without, send it to Dave (OM616) so he can take measurements and all that.

-CTH

__________________
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http://www.111lakeside.com/

mtkst19 welcome!

One thing I have learned is that everyone has a different opinion and no two people want the same thing, lol. One benefit to this constant is that by everyone posting what they think is best, a nice data base of options is generated, which makes for a well informed decision in the end, what ever that may be.

I have been aware of the desire to alter the trans and engine combination for at least 10 years now, and every time it ends the same, there is no market, only a handful of individuals, each wanting a different combination.

This puts the effort into a one off custom category, which raises the total project cost, which causes some of the hand full to understandably drop out.

It sounds like some progress is being made in the effort to collect mock-up block / crank assemblies. A must for this effort.

Anything is possible for a cost.

Please do not hesitate to post, the more thoughts the better.

_________

1-3-12

I just got an e-mail that said I there is a back half of a Aloy M119 and it's flexplate headed my way. Progress!!

I own a 1993 500e. I would like to have a 5 or six speed.
Is the first thing I need to get from a donor auto tranny is the bell housing from an m119 (either the 400e, e420, or 500e)?
I am willing to mate whatever available manual tranny there is readily or not readily available. What are my options?
I have considered a 5 speed getrag out of a 190v (kinda rare).

I thought there were a few guys out here in Calif that were very interested-did we lose this audience?

Please keep me posted on any advancements made for those M119 owners wanting a 5 or 6 speed manual.

Thanks

If you are open to another automatic, member Whipplem can help you swap a later MB 5 spd automatic overdrive in place of your stock 4 spd automatic.
Regards, Eric

__________________
89 300E "Benzer1" 15.924 Uncorrected
93 400E "Benzer3" 14.200 U.C.
95 E420 "Benzer4"
92 300E "Benzer5" 16.299 U.C. Future turbo CNG
87 300D "Benzer7"
87 300D "Benzer8"
87 300D "Benzer9"
87 300D/70 AMC Javelin "Sidewinder-Benzer"
87 300TD "Benzer11"
06 E320 CDI "Benzer12"
05 E320 CDI "Benzer12A"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" AMC 360 pwrd.

I have gotten a price of about $400.00 for a new housing, but if you can find a used trans to rob one from for less that is better.

As for the car model designation, it doesn't do me any good unless we are talking the diesel cars, so the gas engine family is what I am learning to identify what fits what. If you have a M119 engine, and can get a converter housing for the M119 to 722-X trans, then the only missing part is the Fly Wheel.

I have been informed that a M119 block section and a M119 auto fly wheel is on its way. Once I can measure the OD of the fly wheel, I can get material costs, from a discussion behind the seens, it sounds like the M117-119 fly wheels are larger than the Diesel one I have, and based my price on. The quote I got was for a 12'' dia round stock cut disk, 2'' thick, so as long as the M119 fly wheel is with in 12'' all is good. Larger stock will be pricier and harder to find in small quantities.

As for the audience, I don't know. I have one member that is engaged and is / has, sending / sent, the necessary parts for mock-ups of different engines. There is another member who I have been talking with, but nothing has solidified yet. May be after one set up is done others will get in line, but I doubt it.

Regarding 400Eric's post, I think the effort is to get away from the auto and go with a Manual trans. I imagine there are some shops that will mod the valve body to make a MB 6-Speed auto hammer like a strip car, and with a ratchet shifter, might be fun.

So I came home to two boxes on the porch today.

Being curious, I immediately took them in the garage and opened them up to see what we have to work with. My first impression is that the BMW Getrag 6-Speed that cth350 sent me earlier is an excellent choice, and will work with an adaptor plate between the M119 block and the trans. I will need the M119 oil pan as well, as it must have the bottom bolts for the trans.

I took the M113 converter housing and checked to see how it matched up as well, it has a smaller outer diameter, so a better choice would be to get a M119 converter housing, which would be a perfect bell housing for a manual trans set up.

I really need the crank to see how far it sticks out, but for now I can make a temporary crank with a pilot for the input shaft to get a better idea of how the BMW trans aligns to the MB block.

The M119 auto fly wheel is less than 12" inside the ring gear, so the blanks that I had quoted will work, but the gear is machined into the wheel instead of pressed on. My first thought is to get a BMW Fly Wheel and see if the ring gear is removable and compare its diameter for use it on the new Fly Wheel. That way the Stock BMW starter location in the bell housing will be prefect to mount the starter, (may have to go to the BMW starter or equivalent, but will cross that bridge later). I will at least need a MB starter to take its location into account.

Given that I most likely will be making a custom fly wheel, I will have the ability to fudge the thickness a touch, and at first glance, I think we have a winning combination here, with both the BMW 6-Speed and the Converter housing mated to a manual trans with a input shaft of sufficient length (TBD).

So, Things I need after seeing this far is; Starter (BMW and MB preferably), BMW Flywheel or ring gear (for this trans), M119 oil pan, crank back half.

It would be nice to have a M119 converter housing as well.

I have a couple of jobs to finish up here in the next few weeks, then I will start to mock up the block and trans. I will take some pictures as well.

CTH, I will send you an e-mail soon.

I was thinking about it last night and realized that the new fly wheel will need the encoder on the back for the computer. After taking a closer look at the auto fly wheel, I think the best plan would be to remove the center web from the gear ring, and bolt the gear / encoder ring to the back of the new fly wheel. This will also allow the use of the stock MB starter and location, providing that the bell housing has room for the nose cone.

The BMW bell housing is big, and I wonder if it will fit in the car.

So exnay on the BMW ring gear and fly wheel, and BMW starter.

I will also need the clutch disk and pressure plate, and slave cylinder for the BMW trans though.

Great info here and continued success!

Fwiw, my 500sl M117 has 5spd manual and was converted by AMG Germany back in 1982. This was one of the performance options they offered their customers back then. There have been plans to pull the transmission, identify all the bits and reprduce the bell housing exactly as cast by AMG.

There has been a wide range of interest, for various transmission applications but as with a number of other AMG reproductions I have done, ranging from cams to headers, the bh are going to be produced exactly as AMG did for their intended application.

Thus far the easily identified external bits are:

1. Custom bell housing
2. Getrag 265 OD or dogleg MT
3. OE MB starter

The PO had previously changed the clutch pack from a HD unit to a standard duty, this was said to be a BMW 80-82 6 series pack.

Lots of additional discussion here:

m117 manual transmission - Benzworld.org - Mercedes-Benz Discussion Forum

I have this project earmarked for February.

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So how much for your kit?


In order to protect the investment of the members that are currently working with me, I will not post any additional technical information or pictures, communication will be private, behind the seens.

I have no problem with competition, just don't want my clients paying for ideas and solutions that someone else trying to sell something similar can just take with no compensation. That is the problem proprietary information and forums.

The paying members may wish to post what we discuss privately, but that is up to them

The purpose of my posting was merely to offer value by sharing a few facts gained by actually possessing an AMG converted M117 manual, rather than just theory.

I also shared the link above as its quite informative and again, may help.

All the best with this and any future endeavors.

Cheers,
Henric aka 48hp

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