Timing boosted M111
 

Hello all been away from the forums for some time now, mainly traveling now I am home and finishing up my projects....My e36 cab is getting twin turbo & Nos right now


Anyone else running a p-Motronic M111 need to know if your stock ecu retards timing ?
Anyway long story of the car started this project with a bone stock E220 Cabriolet which actually is a E200 Cabriolet. 3 blown engines, 12 cracked pistons,6 bent rods, 18 head gaskets, large stack of $$$. I'm done and proud to say I made 466rwhp(1.5 bar) blown to bits on second dyno pull. Right now its a 356rwhp driver at 10psi. with no timing control.

Bought the MSD DIS II couple years back, never used it. I am told 1/2 degree per pound of Boost,but my m111 actually does not need retard until 7psi. I went to Germany early in the year and bought a brand new ECU suspecting mine had failed only to find it does not pull timing.

So basically anyone familiar with Mercedes Benz P-Motronic (Map Senor)???

almost forgot this is a w124 E200 cabriolet 1995

just go stand-alone + a dyno

Yes, just go standalone, and find a good person to tune it.

I would suggest MoTeC if you want the best.

Thinking Motec after i finish the Getrag 265 swap next summer, but for now I have the MSD and would like to play with the AIC & MSD for the summer as my other W124 is under the knife.

http://content.paulnixon.org/images/...-interests.jpg

I would love to see some tables that they are running in their 104 as far as spark and fuel since I'm going to be megasquirting mine soon.

Also, how are you adapting your 265?

getrag, 265 has removable bellhousing, and is cable speedo, simple installation really, i am using the factory auto bellhousing, cutting it 3 inches behind the face cut the 265 bellhousing accordingly then weld them together. actually i am done with that and have..running the E24 M6 clutch, BMW slave cylinder with MB clutch master. Already have a w124 factory cab shifter picked up in germany...too cheap to pay $1200.00 for a custom driveshaft so i am searching out a proper Mb shaft from other cars until i find one that is perfect.
Tig welder makes life easy

http://content.paulnixon.org/images/...-interests.jpg

Man,im doing something wrong.....You need to explain to me how you got 356rwhp @ 10psi on a 2.2 with a stock ecu,what was your rpm limit?^^.

Yes that will be interesting info, also some specs of the turbo used.....

I cant see that happening, you need 1.4 BAR boost on the 4g63 and over 7000RPMs to touch that HP figure. on the fly wheel.!!! any way HP number again stand for nothing

if he says its reliable now thats a good start.
My M103 with abt 8-9 PSI made 215hp at the wheels according to G-TECH.
and when i went to 11 psi, and ALCI and 6 deg of timing advance, i doubt i had more than 330-340 hp at the fly wheeel.

Because you can't see it happening does not mean it does not happen, at 1.4 bar I am well over 400rwhp..I don't ever want to run 1.4 or no where near than..10 psi max and 7 psi daily. I don't care for aftermarket ecu,I prefer an alphabet soup of piggy backs so I get the reliability and high gas mileage.
What I will tell you about the last and final m111 I built of the 5 I have been through chasing pie in the sky high horsepower. Factory stock M111 is good for 400rwhp reliable. I put my money behind this as I have put my money into, under, on top and through this darn thing for 3 years of research, failure, revision, rebuild etc. 6000 rpm is my limit which is the factory limit on a P- motronic car.

1. all stock 2.0 high compression M111 as found in E200
2. Lightened factory Crankshaft
3. SLK 2.3 cylinder head with cams
4. Factory P-motronic ecu Map sensor running factory 18.8lbs Injectors
5. Split second Aic running two 44lbs rc injectors
6. T60 with a t3 hot housing on a custom designed exhaust manifold
7. 3 inch mandel bent exhaust-no cats, 2 magna flow mufflers
8. tial 38mm wastegate with 7psi spring
9. greddy blow off valve
10. NGK "7" plugs
11. cooling system changed to flow properly
12. stock thermostat
13.NO TIMING CONTROL
14. Porsche 944 fuel pump
15. Aeromotive rising rate pressure regulator
16.redesigned fuel rail
17.Manual homemade Boost controller
18. 3/8 fuel line pressure line-factory return line
3 years and many many many revisions and I can give this car to my wife or mom and they can drive it from Seattle to Los Angeles and boost as much as they want and it will bring them there and back without any special instructions

ok ill take ur word for it.. wouldn't mind seeing a success story, and it seems u've been thru hell and back, so seeing results is just gr8.
might have sounded cynical, didn't mean it.
keep us posted, and plz make some youtube vids if u can

Very Interesting!=),maybe all that advance can really take you there!?
How did you go about machining the crank?,what fuel are you running with the high compression setup?,are the M111k cam oe?.

Your right about the high gas millage(if your purely on maps),I hope to finally tee in my closed loop system later this year and have it all tuned,at a guess it should hopefully bring her back close to stock M111k economy.

If you have more pics post up please;)

A scan or pic of a dyno graph would be nice (not doubting, just interested). Whats interesting is that this engine is putting out similar power to some 3.2 engines with very similar turbos (as flow characteristics) and boost levels .

P.S. Jay 215hp is about right, I get about 205whp on the g-tech for my car @ 7 psi (3-rd gear run), however I've input the weight on the light side since I haven't measured it on a scale with the new engine setup .

Here are some pics,sorry no dyno sheets I am usually too busy making adjustments to worry about photos & video and on top of that I am new to the Seattle area so I don't have much in the way of friends here that can make a video for me.
More than willing however to meet up at western,WA or Southern California (South bay to Orange county) dyno shop and someone else can take video of the screen.

sorry got lost thought we were on m111

By the way those AMG II piece are for sale....No use for them anymore as they were kept for years for a W140 Coupe that I never bought,opted for a Porsche instead.

as you can see in the pics, the engine bay changed quite a bit...

If you are enriching by using an AIC then no reason to touch your stock engine/fuel controllers.

I've been doing this with great success on my M103TT.
Last dyno pull at 7PSI was 262RWP and 302Torque.

The critical thing is that you must set the AIC up on a dyno using a signal from a wideband O2 sensor.

Get your fuel maps correct and there will be zero detonation ( in fact I'm running a slight advance in timing by removing the "infamous" R16 resistor ! )

You're problem was too much boost.

I've installed a Hallman Pro RX manual boost controller.
It's set about 10lbs ( per my boost gauge ) to open the two waste gates simultaneously.

No problems so far, but I will be installing a water/meth injection that would spray at 9lbs boost.

Day to day driving the car doesn't even know it has boost. !
Ed a.

You speak the gospel, when I started out I could have saved myself a whole bunch of money by concentrating on efficiency instead of power,Now the car has incredible power at 10 psi, but I do 7psi for daily driving.

psi per say is not the be all and end all. for example a small turbo, running 7 psi will heat the air up more than a large one running mabe 12 to 15 psi.

is the turbo on the 220 cab a hybrid of some sort?

also the turbo technics intercooler on the twin turbo 103's is a neat piece of engineering, fitting well in the space and looks fantasitc, but it willl not flow more air than that required for around 400 bhp

so if this 220 4 pot has a hybrid turbo and a very good intercooler, the power may be high up there.

the higher power per psi due to lower charge temps is where im going next with my air to water setup... coming soon.

TurboECab, nice cabriolet :-D .
Ed, the problem with running the stock ignition is that actually no one knows what exactly happens after a given point (after a given kpa value), it may be interpolating from the last values of the map and retarding timing, or it could be just going in some kind of limp home mode where it removes X degs of timing for safety, or it could be doing nothing at all, fact is that we don't know what the exact timing is. Of course it's a fact that it works and works well. Come to think of it, it'll be nice to know what the exact timing is (in boost) with the stock ignition, problem is that the only way which I think that it could be measured is on a dyno (preferably a steady state dyno) with a timing light ....

the map reads rpm and manifold pressure, thus the most probable thing is that it just uses the last timing cell it reaches (atmo pressure). so the ezl has no idea its seeing boost, nor can it do anything but use the last value of that cell. Once there is boost it should only change timing according to RPM which is also limited up to 7000 rpm. for after 7k it simply cuts timing to limit rpms.

I don't think that's most probable, megasquirt which is not that sophisticated for an ECU uses the map last pressure and rpm to interpolated values even if you go outside of the table. If your table ends at 200 kpa and 6000 rpm, it still calculates and retards for 210 kpa and 6000 rpm . You could be right, but as I said without proper measurement we are just speculating. Also I'm not inclined to believe that the map for the NA engine was so off ( safe = low power = retarded = high egts) that the same timing would not detonate on 8 psi .... fact is we currently don't know whats going on in the ezl unit

agree. but i based my guess on the ecu being really simple and stupid. but ur say abt no knock on 8 psi is convincing.

M103?

Talking about m111

That interesting, is it verified ? Couldn't it be that it does pull timing and you loose power because with the msd you pull additional timing i.e. say ezl pulls 5 degs (cause map sensor is maxed out) and then you you pull additional 6 degs = 11 degs retard and thats why you loose power ? Anyway it'll be nice to see what happens when measured on a dyno with a timing light, that the only way we can be sure. If what you say is true then it seems that the 29-31 degs of timing of the NA m103 engine (Ed's case) is very conservative .


P.S. What leads me to think this way is that on the stock engine I don't think it's possibly to run 1 bar without pulling the timing, dumping fuel to avoid detonation works up to a point. Of course this is just me speculating and actually the 29 - 31 degs factory ignition advance @ wot could be conservative and with the current fuel the engine could run safe with say 35-36 in NA form at WOT (if tunned ) .

P.S.S. my thoughts are on the m103 engine I have no idea of the timing the M111 runs .

When up exceed 15 psi, you need to add fuel or the engine will detonate and explode.

I've bean reading about the ezl ignition unit (m102,m103 etc.), and it turns out that in some conditions or faults it does retard the timing , so it's no so dump, example : Boiling protection correction - retards timing by 4 (100 - 105 °C) or 6 (90 - 100 °C) degrees depending on model, in some cases and models it can retard even more (there was an example where ignition is retarded to 12
°CA after TDC if a given fault exist ). Will search later if a can find anything specific to vacuum/boost retard.

P.S. sorry that I got this thread a bit off topic, might be good to discuss this in another thread if there is interest .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joreto (Post 2466467) I've bean reading about the ezl ignition unit (m102,m103 etc.), and it turns out that in some conditions or faults it does retard the timing , so it's no so dump, example : Boiling protection correction - retards timing by 4 (100 - 105 °C) or 6 (90 - 100 °C) degrees depending on model, in some cases and models it can retard even more (there was an example where ignition is retarded to 12

On my 300 M103 in NA, i had the CTS fooled to read lower which for EZL is translated by advancing timing. I sometimes would push it too far and i would get knock at high rpms.

I cant say for sure by how much timing was advanced, but i can confirm that the stock map is way way on the safe side. The EZL on M103 has sevral maps stored in it, and also takes CTS as a primary factor in setting timing. IIRC once engine temp is above 100 timing is retarded by 6' and if the altitude compensation sensor or the overload switch if equipped are malfunctioning the ezl will pull 12'