I am installing a SLK supercharger on my 190E 2.3-16 (CIS-E injection). It is now installed and in a testing phase. The problem is, that when the boost is above 4-5 PSI, the throttle "freezes" and cannot be moved. I can reproduce the problem in the garage by over-riding the bypass valve and opening the throttle. Anyone have any idea what could be causing this? My only thoughts that a warn shaft is allowing the butterfly to jam. Anyone have experience with supercharging a CIS-E injected engine?

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Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-speed, 95 E320 Wagon, 01 E320 Wagon, MGB, Boxster 'S', 190SL "Barn Find"

I heard about this on Clinton's car. He has a turbo-16v and had the same problem. You may want to look him up on this site and see how he overcame this.

It seems as though the air that is pushing through the throttle valve is holding it open because of the lever design. I think you may have to install a stiffer spring.

Can you reproduce the problem with the engine off? Or without boost? If not, it has to be that the area of the trottle plate is so large the mechanical force of the lever can't overcome it.

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Benzmac:
Donnie Drummonds
ASE CERTIFIED MASTER AUTO TECHNICIAN
MERCEDES SPECIALIST 11 YRS

Just a quick response ... I can reproduce it in the garage with the engine running, with a little throttle and by disconnecting the by-pass valve so that it is in full boost mode. The engine would be running 3000 RPM no load and I can control the boost pressure with my thumb over the the temperture sensor hole. As the pressure builds, the throttle will not be able to be moved in either direction. I tried a stronger spring without success. The bottom line is that I cannot move the throttle by hand.

I'll search the site tomorrow for the postings that you mentioned. I am sure that it is the same problem. Finding other peoples solution to problems is the true value of this site. Thanks.

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Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-speed, 95 E320 Wagon, 01 E320 Wagon, MGB, Boxster 'S', 190SL "Barn Find"

Hmmmmm, sorry I don't have any suggestions to help with your problem,,,,,, but would like to know what you come up with....

I do have one question/suggestion- I hope that you are using some sort of method to add fuel as your boost level increases.

Hopefully you are using a rich/lean indicator or egt to let you know how it's going.
With "pump" fuel, I would be very careful about running more than 5-6 psi of boost without a timing retard device.

I am currently in the "initial" process of installing a mossleman turbo on my old street 16v, for my friend who now owns it.

I said "initial" because right now, I am just doing a "test fit" of everything, and removing alot of surrounding parts (alt brackets etc) to send out to be chromed/plated etc.

We will also be having all exhaust components ceramic coated.
This car is a hot street/show car, so he wants me to be sure and make the install as pretty and sanitary as possible.

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Alain
independant MBZ tech since 1981
http://www.motorsportlegendsks.com/

Allan ... Good to have you advice and council. For monitoring fuel, I installed an air/fuel ratio gauge in place of the stopwatch that didn't work. It gets its measurement from of the oxygen sensor. With initial tesing (with a frozen throttle) with 5-6 psi of boost, it shows a lean conditions from 2K to 5K RPM then rich from 5K to 6.5K RPM. I plan to use the gauge to determine what type of enrichment I need. There are a couple of products on the market that "over drive" the EHA. At this early "proof of concept" stage, my acceleration timing tests indicated that the supercharger increased my horsepower from 174 to 195 at 6000 RPM. The Excel horespower program is described here. You can see my progress pictures here. Clinton has reported the identical problem as mine on his thread.

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Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-speed, 95 E320 Wagon, 01 E320 Wagon, MGB, Boxster 'S', 190SL "Barn Find"

After thinking and thinking, It has to be the force of the air over the bottom edge of the throttle plate. If you are running 6 psi, you are putting 6 pounds of force per square inch of the throttle plate in the down or open posittion. (I think.)

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Benzmac:
Donnie Drummonds
ASE CERTIFIED MASTER AUTO TECHNICIAN
MERCEDES SPECIALIST 11 YRS

After reading Clinton's post, it sounds like he is experiencing "boost creep" (where a little boost creates more exhaust which creates more boost etc) until you end up in an uncontrolled situation. This is why turbos have waste gates (and pop off valves)
........... but it seems strange that Jim is having the same experience with the supercharger.

Does this "only" happen with the throttle opened "all the way"?
What about at say, 80% open?

Is it possible that you have the throttle (cable)adjusted too tightly? Maybe try backing it off a bit?

I have installed different supercharger kits vortec,Kenne-Bell and ATI on 5.0 liter mustang engines and never had anything like that happen? These all made up to about 9psi boost.


On a side note- I had about an hour of spare time today so I mounted the mossleman intercooler on my friend's (Priest) 16v.
Man, what a PITA that was!
I ended up having to remove the radiator & grind the lip off of the drivers side tank, remove the headlight assembly, cut and modify the low side a/c hose, and pound on the steel panel to flatten it a little, in order to get the thing to fit!
Ended up spending about two hours doing this.
The mosselman kit is complete, but the instructions are not very detailed.
This is not an afternoon job for the DIY'er who doesn't have access to a die grinder and a couple of hammers!

Hopefully, I will have time this week end to work on it a little and get everything "set" into place,,,,,,,,, then off it all comes,,,,
along with all the pulleys & brackets off the front of the engine, and to the powder painters & platers we go!

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Alain
independant MBZ tech since 1981
http://www.motorsportlegendsks.com/

Alain ... I forgot to mention that I loved your web site. Good to see 16 valves in race trim. I am just in the "Performance driving" stage and may or may not move on.

On my problem, the throttle does not "freeze" at full throttle, only between 20%-75% or so open. It is not a cable or spring problem because I can recreate the symptom in the garage by disconnecting the by-pass valve and I cannot move the throttle by hand. My only real thought is that the shaft is warn and the butterfly is binding against the side of the throttle body. It looks like time to buy a new throttle body but I would like some confirmation that the $2-300 part would solve the symptom.

I also have a "blower creep" situation that I need to solve. At an intermediate throttle, the blower compresses more air than the engine needs and the pressure builds until I disconnect the blower. I have a vacuum actuated by-pass that works fine with vacuum but does not limit boost. I am beginning to look for an adjustable blow-off valve with a 1-200 CFM capacity. Do you have nay suggestions on products or sources?

Again, thanks for you comments.

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Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-speed, 95 E320 Wagon, 01 E320 Wagon, MGB, Boxster 'S', 190SL "Barn Find"

I'm running a little latew this morning,,,,,,,,,, will post some info tonight about possible BOV (blow off valves).
There are many to choose from and most are adjustable.

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Alain
independant MBZ tech since 1981
http://www.motorsportlegendsks.com/

Have you thought about contacting companies in europe that supercharge/turbo charge benzes or a japanese tuner shop that installs these types of things? They might have some insight for you on repairing this problem.

Keep us posted I am interested to find out how this is going to work for you. I might decide to see if one of those SLK superchargers will retrofit on my 300ce. of course thats just a faint dream, but its a good one at that!!

Good luck,

Alon

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'92 300CE - Sold
2004 C240 - 744 - C7 Wheels - Android Radio
2002 C320 - 816 - Sport Wagon

The BOV's from turbo xs have a pretty good reputation, but I haven't used one myself (yet). I do know two guys here locally that have them and are happy.
Both of them drive GSX mitsubishis.

Here is a link to a place in Alabama that does custom work.
Click on their "catalog" section for a good description of the BOV's.
I have not done any biz with these guys, they were recommended by the owner of a cobra project (on the cobra forum I visit very frequently.)
Here is the link- http://www.turborepair.com/

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Alain
independant MBZ tech since 1981
http://www.motorsportlegendsks.com/

Thanks Alain .... The kind of reference that I needed. I'll call them on Monday.

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Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-speed, 95 E320 Wagon, 01 E320 Wagon, MGB, Boxster 'S', 190SL "Barn Find"

Jim, have you gotten any help form the turbo guys?
I'm interseted in your progress.

An up date on Priest's 16v-
I removed all of the components this week, after intitial "trial fitting".

Sent the mosselman ex manifold to jet-hot to be coated....

.....sent all the pulleys, new air box, & misc parts to the painters...

.... alt brackets & misc small metal parts to chrome shop...

...removed the stock TB and sent to Bekkers for excahnge with their over size unit (I don't know if it will make much of a diff- but one is on it's way)

relocated the oil cooler (NOT THE WAY MOSSELMAN wants it)
the want you to hack up the front bumper--- I don't think so.

....Instead- I made a couple of brackets and did some "trimming" in the existing center hole of the front air dam. IT fits great there, gets plenty of air, and you have to REALLY be looking to see it.

Next I will be having some new oil cooler hoses made- since the originals are about 8 inches short now.

The bad news is that the chrome shop is very busy, and it may take a month to get those parts back from them.

I also will be working on a "drain" for the turbo, since the Mosselman instructions want you to "drill into the side of the block" (uhhh-NOPE- not gonna do it that way)
...... so, I will probably end up removing the pan and modifying it for the turbo oil drain.

Oh- will also be getting a box of mild steel mandrel "U-bends" to make and air feed for the turbo and getting a K&N type cone filter.
Once I have the air intake hose "tacked" together how I want it, I'll be having my welder come in & TIG it for me and then have the pipe chromed.
The kit came with some real cheezey looking rubber hose and an ugly black plastic air filter housing..... Those just won't do- for this show winning street screamer!



Soooo much to do and sooo little spare time. Progress will probably be pretty slow until I get most of the parts back from the various platers & painters,,,,,,,,,,,
but in the mean time- I am working on some ultra joe-cool suspension stuff for the race car,,,,,,, and putting power brakes on my cobra replica. WHEW! Winter project time

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Alain
independant MBZ tech since 1981
http://www.motorsportlegendsks.com/

WOW ... You are much more of a craftsman than I am. I am making my air ducts with drainpipe PVC, easy to modify while I work through the problems. If you have some left over duct stuff, I might be interested. My current joints are Fernco plumbing fittings. They expand up like a balloon when the pressure goes up.

I am interested in how and where you relocated located the oil cooler. I almost moved mine so that I could move the radiator over a couple of inches. It would have made the plumbing for the by-pass valve and the radiator much easier. It looked like moving the bottom radiator pads would be a pain so I just worked everything in. It could also free up a nice space for an intercooler.

When you had the throttle body off, did you happen to look at it to see if anything could be binding? I am still stumped by my symptoms.

My current approach is to install a low-pressure blow off valve to limit the boost pressure. The guys at turbo repair are super HONEST. They are hesitant about selling me the by-pass valve that they stock because they were not sure that it would do what I needed done. They wanted to contact the manufacturer first. In the mean time, I have a cheap plastic Bosch blow off valve that I have saw up so that I could make it "low pressure adjustable". I stuck it onto the PVC with JB Weld and will test it this weekend.

How hard is it to remove the throttle body? It looks like a frustrating, most of a day project.

Post some pictures of this project on your web site.

Wish that you lived closer to Virginia Beach.

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Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-speed, 95 E320 Wagon, 01 E320 Wagon, MGB, Boxster 'S', 190SL "Barn Find"

Jim, THANK YOU for using the term "craftsman" !!!!
My wife just says I do things like this because I'm "anal".

Is there a shop in your area that does repairs on semis and large trucks??? They are a good source for cheap - good hose for ducting air, since they see alot of turbo/ supercharged applications.

I put the oil cooler in the area under where the front tag goes.
I know my description isn't very good,,,,,but it was pretty easy.
If there is one place I am waaay behind, it is in this computer stuff. I do not yet have a digital camera, but I do have a scanner.

I will be taking pics of the project but don't have the patience to put them on a site. I will e-mail some to you when I have them scanned.

I actually did look at the TB to see if the shaft had any weird play or anythings but, it was fine. The only thing I can figure is that it may be somehow "binding" the linkage???? or maybe forcing air through the air slde valve??Or the boosted air, maybe doing weird things to the fuel pressure regulator???? Not sure.

Removing the TB is not too tough,,,but it seems like alot of effort to replace a part, that I'm not sure will be a big benefit.

You just have to be patient, and PAY ATTENTION to things like how the throttle linkages are set up. If you do get this far into it,,,,do yourself a big favor and replace all of the vacuum hoses that are almost impossible to get at when it is all together.

It might be worth it for you to disassemble the linkage and clean & lube everything to make sure you are not getting any bind.
Maybe even disconnect the one that goes to the cruise actuator temporarily too???? Just take notes or mark the parts, because it can become a "jigsaw puzzle" if you forget how it goes back together.

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Alain
independant MBZ tech since 1981
http://www.motorsportlegendsks.com/