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  #16  
Old 01-07-2002, 12:45 PM
Gustav
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No, the E60 is also avail in the newer E class shape. I have seen it in real life and can prove it that it exists. Special version of the E50 from AMG.

Here in Sweden yuo can buy any AMG car from the Mercedes dealer. Same goes for Germany.

Quote:
Originally posted by gillybenztech
6 Mercedes AMG models began production in September 1993:
E36 Coupe, Convertible, and Wagon, E60 Sedan, SL60, and C36 Sedan.
C55 was never offered directly from Mercedes, E50 and E55 210 chassis were Mercedes offerings, as was the previously mentioned E60, which was a 124 chassis only.
SL55 and 73, S and CL63, and any G Wagen AMG would not be sold direct from Mercedes.
Gilly


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  #17  
Old 01-08-2002, 01:15 AM
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Hi Guys:
First of all I have no doubt that Mercedes and AMG worked together on several projects, such as the Hammer and other race cars. You can make what you want of the hash marks on the Sportline badges, to me it means nothing. If you think it means something, fine. Call MBUSA and see what they have to say. Call AMG and see what it has to say. AMG may have hand assembled each and every Sportline car. It's still not an AMG car. Doesn't say AMG on the car. Serious! Take the 500E for example. Much of the work on the body modifications was done by Porsche in a Porsche plant, but no one calls it a Porsche, right?
AMG is a tuner, well, at least they were, I don't know what they are anymore except a "tiny little division" of Daimler-Chrysler. Maybe they did or do build a E60 210 chassis. My info covers all models worldwide, but is a couple years old, goes up to the beginning of the 215 chassis (CL class). Up until that point, the E60 210 chassis didn't exist. I realize that because it doesn't exist in the US doesn't mean it wasn't built for another market.
The point is, what I believe we are discussing is a Mercedes AMG model, not a "tuner" car. Even though a Mercedes tuner car may be bought through a Mercedes dealer, maybe even under factory warranty, does not mean that the car is a regular Mercedes AMG model.
There is a difference between a Mercedes AMG model and a AMG modified Mercedes.
Gilly
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  #18  
Old 01-08-2002, 02:26 AM
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I don't think anyone is trying to say that a Sportline is an AMG.

Personally, the history is the aspect that interests me, along with the fact that this degree of similarity in design would normally spawn trademark infringement litigation if there were no prior agreement between parties. Microsoft is currently suing a Linux software company because their 'Lindows' name "...could be confused with 'Windows'." Apple and Microsoft duked it out over the look of the graphic interface that Xerox Corporation developed. MB sued MercedesShop over the similarity in names (MB/DC lost! ), so they aren't exactly bashful in 'protecting their own'.

For all I know the 5 slashes were an MB design from their performance design center, if any, which was subsequently incorporated into the AMG logo as they began to merge. Or the Sportline suspension may have been a 'paper napkin' design by AMG and MB engineers over beer and Schnitzel after a weekend autocrossing, without any formal involvement by either company, and the 5 bars represent their favorite drinking spots. Or it may be pure coincidence - stranger things have happened. Neither MB or AMG responded to my original queries, so who knows.

I don't try to represent my car as either an original Sportline OR as an AMG. (Which is the tail, and which is the dog? The MB engineers who came up with the factory design, or the AMG engineers who modified the design for special applications? MB existed for decades without AMG - but the converse isn't apparent!) It may seem like a waste of time to pursue this history, but on the other hand, several Ivy League universities offer PhD programs in the History of Science and Technology - this could become someone's dissertation! (I'll help them with their comps - junior author status will be sufficient recognition.) :p
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  #19  
Old 01-08-2002, 09:22 AM
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Hi:
I think my last post went kind of downhill after "Hi guys". It was late, I could have been more tactful, just a little tired, sometimes I have a hard time pushing myself away from the computer.
Comments more or less still stand though, just go back and try reading it in a "more tactful" manner. Sorry.
Gilly
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  #20  
Old 01-09-2002, 09:37 PM
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Not to appear dense, but wouldn't the first 'collaboration' between the two be the 'factory' body kit on the 190E 2.3-16's which came out to the world in 1983? This of course was 10+(?) years before MB aquired AMG......

Mikko
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  #21  
Old 01-10-2002, 01:23 PM
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I have sent an e-mailed request to M-B USA for information as to AMG's participation (if any) in the 190E Sportline package, with a reference to this thread.

As I stated that I own three M-Bs and gave my VIN for my 190E Limited Edition with the Sportline package (i.e., I am asking for information on my actually-owned vehicle rather than just asking a hypothetical question), hopefully M-B USA will take the question seriously.

I will, fo course, post anything I find out.
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  #22  
Old 01-10-2002, 03:06 PM
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Does anyone have pictures of the 3.6 liter M104 engine installed in the W124 chassis? I'd like to compare it to my conversion.

More importantly, I'd like to put a bigger and cooler airbox for my C36 engine. I was thinking about relocating the washer-resevoir, and installing the heat-shield of the W124 diesel.

Now where can I put my washer-resevoir?
Anyone have an idea?

I just don't have the room on the firewall near the intake manifold like the E300D has.

I've seen a washer-resevoir above the ABS unit, but not on a W124 chassis, hence my quest for a picture of the AMG 3.6 W124 engine bays.

BTW- Here are three engine-bays:

1) W124 diesel: note heatshield around airbox and re-location of washer-resevoir;

2) my 1988 360TE: I want to place a less restricive K&N or the C36 airbox in the space of the existing airbox and washer-resevoir, and install the E300D's heat-shield.

3) 1996 C36 engine bay. Note the bigger air-box, and the washer-resevoir over the ABS unit.

:-) neil
1988 360TE AMG
1993 500E



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  #23  
Old 01-10-2002, 03:10 PM
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Neil's engine question

You might want to post this over on the Tech Help board where you would probably get more exposure and more techs' attention.
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  #24  
Old 01-10-2002, 03:58 PM
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Neil,

I just notice that you didn't use intake plenum pipe for C36's..?

Any reason..?
I am just curious..

Regardz,

J Irwan
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  #25  
Old 01-10-2002, 06:00 PM
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Yes, I cross-posted on the "Performance" board as well.

The intake cross-pipe is from a M104 used on the S320. Per the Mercedes group that built the C36 Medical car (my donor car) it helps make more low-end torque, but at the expense of wide-open throttle breathing.

I've never tried a regular C36 intake cross-pipe, so I can't vouch for the difference.

:-) neil
1988 360TE AMG
1993 500E

Here's a picture of the S320 engine bay, and a picture of the C36 donor vehicle.


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  #26  
Old 01-10-2002, 06:06 PM
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While searching for the elusive E36, I came across a site that claims the following (http://www.4car.co.uk/crash/index.jsp?page=10&newsid=2762):

QUOTE:
AMG (Aufrecht Melcher Grossaspach) was founded in 1967 by Hans-Werner Aufrecht, a former Mercedes engineer, and his business partner Erhard Melcher to design and test racing engines; the business expanded into building one-off bespoke road cars for customers, developed from standard Mercedes-Benz vehicles.

By the 80s, the company was producing unofficial upgrade packages and styling kits for Mercedes vehicles, but the first formal partnership with was discussed in 1985.

The first Mercedes-sanctioned collaboration was in 1988, on cars for the German Touring Car championship. AMG then produced aftermarket wheels and styling products for Mercedes in 1991, and the first road-going model to officially wear an AMG badge was the C36 AMG of 1994. The E36 AMG and SL60 AAMG followed, and AMG also worked on the CLK GTR supercar.

In 1999, Mercedes-Benz took a majority stake in AMG, and its shareholding will increase each year until 2009, when it will take full ownership.

Under this alliance, Mercedes is moving build of the AMG models onto its standard production lines - all AMG models except the E55 versions are now integrated into the usual assembly process.

However, when the current E-Class range is replaced next year, the AMG model in that range will be built with the others. This is to free the AMG facilities up for more development and engine work, as well as returning to its roots by making special-order, bespoke customer vehicles.

END QUOTE

:-) neil
1988 360TE AMG
1993 500E
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  #27  
Old 01-11-2002, 01:43 AM
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Hi:
My info, once again straight from MB archives, is that production began 9/93 for all 6 1994 AMG models:
C36
E36 (coupe, cabrio, wagon)
E60 sedan
SL60
One model or another had to be done first of course, I think the C36 sticks in everyones mind in the US because it's the only one offered in the US. Slicing hairs I guess, but per MB they all entered production in that month.
Gilly
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  #29  
Old 02-18-2002, 10:35 AM
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Not to "muddy the waters" too much.........

.....but you can order a Renntech car from an MB dealership in Florida (Brumos, I think).

Also, other dealers offer Brabus or Lorinser modifed cars too.

Could it have been possible to order an AMG tuned car from a dealer?
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  #30  
Old 02-18-2002, 11:19 AM
Gustav
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Yes.

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