natural asprirated - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

oldsinner111 · #1 10-02-2011, 11:20 AM

Has anyone else improved their natural asprirated engine without turbo or supercharger.
Any dyno resluts or race times,an what improvements.Nitrous OK.

400Eric · #2 10-03-2011, 05:30 AM

Lose about a thousand pounds of weight! Please don't take this the wrong way but making that big heavy S-class go faster is probably almost as hard as making my M103 go faster is proving to be. You should consider leaving that as your main car for hauling your boys around in and nabbing an E-class powered by that 3.2 M104 for your going faster endeavors. They have really been coming down in value to the point where even us poor folk can own them and it's OK to have more than one Benz! (I have four now!) Losing about a thousand pounds of weight by switching to an E-class will do wonders for performance! It is in fact a tried and true time honored Hot Rodding technique!

Again, not dissing the S-class. Keep it and enjoy it. Just trying to get you to adopt another Benz into the fold and make that one faster!
Regards, Eric

oldsinner111 · #3 10-03-2011, 06:05 AM

There are know hopped up S Class thats why I'm doing.Like the Heavy Chevy.if I can get her into the 15s I'll rest.

JUNAID786 · #4 10-03-2011, 08:10 AM

i would seriously consider smaller wheels if you want a better quarter mile time. smaller wheels and taller tyres. the thing that benefits the most from weight reduction is your wheels. but if you plan on racing around a track then your handling will suffer. dont you have a set of 14" wheels lying around anywhere? even if they steel rims. the difference between 14" and 15" is rather noticable.

MAG58 · #5 10-03-2011, 08:23 AM

How do I say this, the amount of money and work that would have to go into a Normally aspirated setup to get you into the 15's is going to be far and above the excess to do a normal FI setup. The most you're going to get without opening the motor is maybe, MAYBE 250 hp on a Non-AMG motor. The cams are tiny and the SCR isn't that high. This is going to include headers, the right sized intake, and a perfect tune. The only way you could break 300 wheel is with a big ol' shot of nitrous, and IMO any engine on a ton of nitrous is on borrowed time anyway.

First time you crack into the motor you're spending more money than a FI setup would run.

To go fast you're going to have to pay. There's no cheap way around that. You've got a heavy car, so it's not going to get any cheaper.

400Eric · #6 10-04-2011, 12:12 AM

Another reason why it's a good idea to hop up a different car is that you can take bigger chances and risks with it without worrying about hurting a valuable and/or vital source of main transportation. If you hurt or break your E-class, you still have your other 2 cars to drive. It's really quite liberating to have that security.
Regards, Eric

oldsinner111 · #7 10-04-2011, 06:09 AM

I have my trust worthy SD.I'm on limited income I could never buy another Benz.I de tune my car after racing,and run stock.I will stay with what I got as my extra power.I will not nitrous.
I will at some point buy a wore out m104 to rebuild for speed.As my engine has 160,000.To have at back up.I want to stroke a 3.2.

RBYCC · #8 10-04-2011, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAG58

How do I say this, the amount of money and work that would have to go into a Normally aspirated setup to get you into the 15's is going to be far and above the excess to do a normal FI setup. The most you're going to get without opening the motor is maybe, MAYBE 250 hp on a Non-AMG motor. The cams are tiny and the SCR isn't that high. This is going to include headers, the right sized intake, and a perfect tune. The only way you could break 300 wheel is with a big ol' shot of nitrous, and IMO any engine on a ton of nitrous is on borrowed time anyway.

First time you crack into the motor you're spending more money than a FI setup would run.

To go fast you're going to have to pay. There's no cheap way around that. You've got a heavy car, so it's not going to get any cheaper.

Headers, intake and the most perfect tune on a M104-24V will be lucky to give you 200RWP on a load dyno !
An older S320 with a fresh motor, on it's the best day will be mid to high 16's....
Mid 15's are what newer S430 and S500 run

oldsinner111 · #9 10-04-2011, 08:48 AM

wait a minute bhp stock is 228.I already ran 16. 8 with my inprovements.Stock time was 17.5 Saturdays race RT .435 60' 2.514 1/8 10.881 1/4 16.867 mph 83.24.

RBYCC · #10 10-04-2011, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldsinner111

wait a minute bhp stock is 228.I already ran 16. 8 with my inprovements.Stock time was 17.5 Saturdays race RT .435 60' 2.514 1/8 10.881 1/4 16.867 mph 83.24.

Granted your BHP is listed at 228.
But the number I gave is RWP.
Assuming that the car with driver is 4000lbs.

Calculating by ET

HP=weight / ( ET/5.825) to the third power

4000 / ( 16.87/5.825 = 2.89 )
2.89 to the third power = 24.13
4000/24.13 = 165.76RWP

Calculating by Trap speed

HP =weight x ( speed/234 ) to the third power

4000 x ( 83.24/234 = .35 )
.35 to the third power = .04
4000 x .04 = 160RWP

Check my math...

tjts1 · #11 10-04-2011, 09:32 AM

Lose the weight. I was able to take 100# out of a W201 and still have a complete interior, AC, CC, power everything. Theres probably another 50# ripe for the picking. Imagine how much useless crap you can take out of a W140.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/tjts2/Green%20Mercedes/Diet4.jpg?t=1303681704

oldsinner111 · #12 10-04-2011, 09:47 AM

I looked up measurements.So My SD must have only 80 hp at rearwheel.

RBYCC · #13 10-04-2011, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldsinner111

More horse power measurements?I thought the reason why German cars were faster is that US cars advertised horepower at the crank.That BHP was measure by braking force to hold car.
As for real horse was dynoed.

No such thing as "real" HP..it's either BHP or RWP.
Also HP be it BHP or RWP is a mathematical calculation derived from a torque which is what a dyno measures.

A dynamometer is a "braking" device.

The BHP output is done with the engine on an engine test stand/dyno, not installed in a car.
It's done this way so there is no drive train and at times no parasitic loss from engine driven devices such as alternator, a/c compressor etc.
Over the years SAE has changed it's formulas for calculating BHP.

Typical loss from drivetrain as recorded on a load dyno is about 30%..
Note that I state a load, not inertia type dyno !!

Ed A.

MAG58 · #14 10-04-2011, 04:46 PM

I'm going to agree with what Ed's saying. When I said 250, I was going with BHP. But 200 at the wheels sounds about right. On my MS3 engine with the smog and ac removed, and no mechanical fan, I'd estimate that I'm probably just under the 250hp number given the weight difference between that and my Z and knowing what my Z made. FWIW, I don't think the cams in the M104's, CIS or LH/HFM are big enough to benefit greately from a header. These 24v motors start to run out of wheeze about 6k and are really on borrowed time at 6600. On a 3.0 or 2.8 that'll be a little higher since you're flowing less air per rev, but at the same time that's what you get in an engine designed for midrage (say what you want about the M103 vs M104, the M104 in its cam design was not designed for top end).

400Eric · #15 10-05-2011, 08:18 AM

Bob, while what you say is true about O.S.'s HFM M104, the CIS-E M104 reaches peak horsepower at 6,300 RPM. It's a different animal than even a 2.8 HFM which reaches it's hp peak at only 5,000 RPM. (The 3.2's peak is at 5,500.) You would think that the dual mode intake that the later HFM M104s benefit from would help broaden the powerband more than it appears to. We really need somebody to translate that engineering paper that you linked for us a while back! http://www.pvv.org/~syljua/merc/M104Motor.pdf (At least there are captions in English!) In that paper on page 201, the valve lift curves are shown for the M103 and the CIS-E M104 (the "300E-24"). I would guess that the later HFM M104s have even milder cams than the CIS-E M104 did. It might also be that the CIS-E M104's intake runners were only 355mms long while the later HFM M104's intake runners are 470mms long.

Ed, one potential problem I see with your math is that O.S.'s W140 most certainly weighs more than 4,000 pounds even without the driver!
Regards, Eric

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