MBDOC- I figured that you could answer this rather qucikly. Aside from GTC who makes cams that will give you the higher lift needed to help the 16-valve climb through the lower RPM ranges? I have heard that one guy fabricated his own. Any thoughts or ideas ?

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1994 E500 (MY SUNDAY DRIVER)
1993 190E SPORTLINE LE W/ M104 SWAP
1997 C230
2002 ML320
2000 BMW 528I (WIFEY'S CAR)

"Excuses are crutches for the unfounded."

The stock cams are really GOOD! I have played around with several cams & NO real improvement in HP unless you spin the engine at least 7500. & they won't last long there.
Only 3 HP increase, MAX.
NONE will help in the bottom end range, only at the top.
Benzmac picked up a few by having the cam gears modified allowing 4-5 degrees of cam timing change. Slotted bolt holes.

__________________
MERCEDES Benz Master Guild Technician (6 TIMES)
ASE Master Technician
Mercedes Benz Star Technician (2 times)
44 years foreign automotive repair
27 Years M.B. Shop foreman (dealer)
MB technical information Specialist (15 years)
190E 2.3 16V ITS SCCA race car (sold)
1986 190E 2.3 16V 2.5 (sold)
Retired Moderator

Thanks DOC that is exactly the kind of information I was seeking.

__________________
1994 E500 (MY SUNDAY DRIVER)
1993 190E SPORTLINE LE W/ M104 SWAP
1997 C230
2002 ML320
2000 BMW 528I (WIFEY'S CAR)

"Excuses are crutches for the unfounded."

I also thank you for your comments. I have thought about cams but had not yet felt the need. I am currently installing an SDS Injection System on my 16 vlave. When I get the tuning figured out and it run on a dyno, I'll post the results and pictures to my web page.

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Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-speed, 95 E320 Wagon, 01 E320 Wagon, MGB, Boxster 'S', 190SL "Barn Find"

Jim,

That is awesome that you got the electronic fuel injection system for your 16V. That is supposed to be the main problem for our cars in comparison to the E30 M3. How much was the system, I would love to do it to mine, but I wouldn't be able to do the labor myself like you are doing. The price for labor to do something like that is just too much. Anyways good luck with it, I can't wait to see your results.

Giancarlo

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PAST MB's: 2006 E55 AMG | 1986 190E 2.3-16

Say MB DOC, do your views on cams include the cams supplied from Bekkers and Schrick of Germany? I was condiering getting one for my '87 300E. By the way , did the '86-88 300E's have "hotter" cams---were they actually faster than the '89-'92's?

the 86s-88s were faster than the later models, but im not sure if this is because of the hotter cams, I know the changed rear end ratio had a lot to do with it though...

I read here not long ago the 86-88 300E had slightly more aggressive cams than later models.. but I think MBDOC is only talking about the 190 16vs when he says there is little improvement to be had. The head and cams were engineered by Cosworth in the UK, who created, among many other masterpieces, the most succesful racing engine ever (Ford / Cosworth DFV V8).. they new what they were doing when they chose the cam, I wouldn't change it just for the sake of it!

Change something which is worth improving and wasn't designed & chosen by master engineers (nothing springs to mind though)



later

Russ

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190E's:
2.5-16v 1990 90,000m Astral Silver
2.0E 8v 1986 107,000m Black 2nd owner
http://www.maylane.demon.co.uk/190esmall.jpghttp://www.maylane.demon.co.uk/190esmall2.jpg

Are the cams in the european versions of the 16 valves different in any way to the one´s in north america? Or are there any differences from a 1987 2.3-16 euro to a 1987 2.3-16 us?

i think the cams are the same. the difference is the euro is a 10.5:1 comp ratio and the us is a 9.7:1. the euro also did not have catalytic converter.

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dew
86' 190e 2.3L 16v

The euro also has a different rear axle ratio of 3.07 compared to the 3.27 of the U.S. version.

Giancarlo

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PAST MB's: 2006 E55 AMG | 1986 190E 2.3-16

The euro 16V in 1985 had 10.5/1 compression. However when Germany required catalytic converters in 1986 the compression dropped to 9.7/1. The HP difference is ignition timing & fuel mixture. Also the DIN HP is different than the SAE HP ratings, so they are always higher.
The cams even on the 190E 2.5 16V are even the same as the US ones. ONLY the intake cam on the "street" evo 2.5's are hotter that what comes from the factory. AS I said unless you buzz the engine above 7500 there isn't much to gain. And at that point the fuel system & intake manifold would limit any real gains.

__________________
MERCEDES Benz Master Guild Technician (6 TIMES)
ASE Master Technician
Mercedes Benz Star Technician (2 times)
44 years foreign automotive repair
27 Years M.B. Shop foreman (dealer)
MB technical information Specialist (15 years)
190E 2.3 16V ITS SCCA race car (sold)
1986 190E 2.3 16V 2.5 (sold)
Retired Moderator

great post MB DOC. that's some stuff i never knew.

while i'm writing i've got a question for MB DOC. gernerally speaking, when i install the turbo kit on my 16v will running hotter cams do much for me (worth the investment)? i'm not doing anything to the fuel system other than setting it for more enrichment with the computer that comes with the kit, and maybe additionally with the cold start valve. and, the only thing i'm doing the ignition is additing a jacobs coil and controller. how about a hotter intake cam and a slight retard on the exhaust cam gear (worth it)? my understanding is that will, if anything, give me a slightly higher peak torque while likely lowering the area under the torque curve. i might go to 8000 RPM valve springs but most of the time the engine will be in the 4000 to 7000 RPM range. this is a %98 street car (2% track) always driven hard but only rarely driven above 100 mph on the street.

i know i need to buy the book "Maximum Boost" for comprehensive answers: i just haven't gotten around it it yet.

thanks

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dew
86' 190e 2.3L 16v

I do have some turbo experience. It tells me that on turbo motors, the milder the cam, the more boost you can run, thus, more power. I would choose the mildest cams for the turbo car and run a monster intercooler.

Tuning is a must. You will want to spend some real time on a dyno to get the ignition and fuel perfect.

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Benzmac:
Donnie Drummonds
ASE CERTIFIED MASTER AUTO TECHNICIAN
MERCEDES SPECIALIST 11 YRS

that's what i thought. so, i'm going to continue to use my stock cams. i'm limited on my intercooler size by the one that comes with the kit. i don't want to have one custom fabricated and start changing around the location of a lot of things on my vehicle. i plan to run water injection and a some additional fuel enrichment with a manual under the hood boost controller. the tuning will be done by someone who knows better than i do how to do this stuff.

thanks man,

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dew
86' 190e 2.3L 16v