Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Mercedes-Benz Performance Paddock

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-13-2015, 09:20 PM
300SD81's Avatar
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: University of Georgia
Posts: 1,080
560SEL M117 Megasquirt

This is in the mail right now...



I also have a 60-2 trigger wheel and sensor bracket made for the M117, PLX wideband O2 driving stock ECU, and the aluminum rod to machine injector adapters. Das Benz was kind enough to send me the drawings of from his build.

Good bit of work and parts gathering ahead...but it's begun. I'm probably going to get it running spark-only with some LS2 truck coils first, since that seems pretty easy.

If anyone has measurements of the injector spacing on the head for machining fuel rails, those would be highly appreciated.

Also, if anyone has a source for the stock EZL timing map, I'd love to build a spark table from it as a starting point. I found this image, but not much more.

__________________
Ich liebe meine Autos!

1991 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL | Megasquirt MS3-Pro | 722.6 transmission w/ AMG paddles | Feind Motorsports Sway Bar | Stinger VIP Radar | AntiLaser Priority | PLX Wideband O2 | 150A Alternator | Cat Delete
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Blown engine, rebuilding someday...
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Rear ended, retired in garage.
2009 Yamaha AR230HO | Das Boot

Excessive speeding? It ain't excessive till I redline!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-14-2015, 01:58 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,225
Welcome to the megasquirt club. The pro is a pretty awesome unit. I have ms2e on my turbo wagon and am contemplating ms3e for my coupe. Selling my ignition module while its still good would probably pay for an ignition only install.

I dont have a lot of pointers for a 117 install. I would recommend a late 119 flywheel and crank sensor for triggering. I use a later model 60-2 flywheel on my 103 with an mb crank sensor and it has been absolutely rock solid. The ms forums are full of people chasing triggering problems. Using the oe flywheel and sensor in the stock location kept my install off that path.

The best advice is dont get discouraged and don't be afraid to ask for help. The best part about ms is that it is near infinitely configurable. Its also the worst part. There is a pretty steep learning curve. The satisfaction of getting it dialed in will be immeasurable.
__________________
90 300TE 4-M

Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs, 1st Gear Start

90 300CE 104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197 intake cam w/20 advancer
4 ignition advance
PCS TCM2000 running 722.6 trans, 600W PWM fan, water injection
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-14-2015, 02:24 AM
300SD81's Avatar
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: University of Georgia
Posts: 1,080
I got one of these off ebay for triggering, looks like it should be pretty reliable, especially combined with a hall effect sensor. I'd very much like to be able to fail over to the stock system by connecting a couple wires, especially at first, since I don't have a spare car.



I'm going to go spark only at first, since it seems easy enough to set up, but the plan is fuel and spark.
__________________
Ich liebe meine Autos!

1991 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL | Megasquirt MS3-Pro | 722.6 transmission w/ AMG paddles | Feind Motorsports Sway Bar | Stinger VIP Radar | AntiLaser Priority | PLX Wideband O2 | 150A Alternator | Cat Delete
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Blown engine, rebuilding someday...
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Rear ended, retired in garage.
2009 Yamaha AR230HO | Das Boot

Excessive speeding? It ain't excessive till I redline!

Last edited by 300SD81; 05-14-2015 at 02:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-18-2015, 11:13 PM
Hit Man X's Avatar
I LOVE BRUNETTES
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: FUNKYTOWN
Posts: 9,085
Thumbs up

Awesome, the US spec M117 is in dire need of a more aggressive timing curve.

100% subscribed to see what you do for the fueling portion.



Dumped the stock Y pipe setup yet? That stock crossover pipe is only 1-5/8"!
__________________
I'm not a doctor, but I'll have a look.

'85 300SD 245k
'87 300SDL 251k
'90 300SEL 326k

Six others from BMW, GM, and Ford.

Liberty will not descend to a people; a people must raise themselves to liberty.
[/IMG]
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-19-2015, 07:47 PM
300SD81's Avatar
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: University of Georgia
Posts: 1,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hit Man X View Post
Awesome, the US spec M117 is in dire need of a more aggressive timing curve.

100% subscribed to see what you do for the fueling portion.



Dumped the stock Y pipe setup yet? That stock crossover pipe is only 1-5/8"!
Plan is twin turbo in the future, so exhaust stays mostly stock until I get to making up some turbo manifolds. Unless a set of Tri-Ys happen to pop up cheap...

-------------

I've been spending way too much lately, probably going to take a month off working on the car before I pull the trigger on a set of LS coils and EV12 injectors. Maybe I'll find a decent starter timing map by then.


Anyone with EFI experience - would it be a bad idea to take it to have spark dyno tuned, only to take it back for fuel later? Do they charge by the hour, or a certain amount for a full tune?
__________________
Ich liebe meine Autos!

1991 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL | Megasquirt MS3-Pro | 722.6 transmission w/ AMG paddles | Feind Motorsports Sway Bar | Stinger VIP Radar | AntiLaser Priority | PLX Wideband O2 | 150A Alternator | Cat Delete
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Blown engine, rebuilding someday...
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Rear ended, retired in garage.
2009 Yamaha AR230HO | Das Boot

Excessive speeding? It ain't excessive till I redline!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-19-2015, 07:56 PM
Hit Man X's Avatar
I LOVE BRUNETTES
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: FUNKYTOWN
Posts: 9,085
Thumbs up

I just run the standard Euro true duals, big jump in power for the very modest sum I have into them. I have about $150 total in them between junkyarding it, new gaskets, new studs, and copper nuts.

Of course the four piece manifolds would be preferred, but I will find a set someday for cheap.
__________________
I'm not a doctor, but I'll have a look.

'85 300SD 245k
'87 300SDL 251k
'90 300SEL 326k

Six others from BMW, GM, and Ford.

Liberty will not descend to a people; a people must raise themselves to liberty.
[/IMG]
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-19-2015, 09:54 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,225
I would wait on a dyno tune. Spark timing can affect AFR and fueling can affect spark timing. Since you wont start on the ragged edge it would probably be beneficial to start with a simple conservative map and tune it yourself. With a mostly stock engine you could be well off target without doing harm. Meanwhile the learning experience will be invaluable. FWIW I run 18 lbs of boost and my car has never been on a dyno. Its been tuned on the street with datalogs and right foot feedback.
__________________
90 300TE 4-M

Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs, 1st Gear Start

90 300CE 104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197 intake cam w/20 advancer
4 ignition advance
PCS TCM2000 running 722.6 trans, 600W PWM fan, water injection
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-19-2015, 11:09 PM
whipplem104's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: seattle
Posts: 1,166
If you are not monitoring knock. I would start with your peak timing at say around 17-18 degrees under full load. I think you can find the data on the timing maps on the ezls. To give you a starting point. If you want to be more aggressive. Timing is one of those things that you really need to be on a dyno to do properly. You can do it without one but you better be conservative.
At duxthe. How does that thing feel at 18lbs of boost. You should throw it on a dyno to see what kind of power it is making. I am really curious. I am surprised that the 40lb injectors are handling that. I was maxed out on 440cc at around 10lbs of boost.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-19-2015, 11:54 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Modesto CA
Posts: 2,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by whipplem104 View Post
If you are not monitoring knock. I would start with your peak timing at say around 17-18 degrees under full load. I think you can find the data on the timing maps on the ezls. To give you a starting point. If you want to be more aggressive. Timing is one of those things that you really need to be on a dyno to do properly. You can do it without one but you better be conservative.
At duxthe. How does that thing feel at 18lbs of boost. You should throw it on a dyno to see what kind of power it is making. I am really curious. I am surprised that the 40lb injectors are handling that. I was maxed out on 440cc at around 10lbs of boost.
The stock US EZL for the 560 provides up to 28 deg. @ 3500, WOT, no vacuum, and up to 44 deg. w/vacuum.
And no pinging on 87 regular!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-20-2015, 12:01 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,225
Pretty angry. Keep in mind that I'm running a small turbo. Its falling off by 4k RPM. I redline it at 5200. Peak hp doesn't interest me. I built this setup to make gobs of torque in the RPM range its driven in.
__________________
90 300TE 4-M

Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs, 1st Gear Start

90 300CE 104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197 intake cam w/20 advancer
4 ignition advance
PCS TCM2000 running 722.6 trans, 600W PWM fan, water injection
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-20-2015, 12:54 AM
300SD81's Avatar
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: University of Georgia
Posts: 1,080
I've found these bits of data in the WIS, but nothing resembling a full map anywhere I've searched, except for that picture in the first post, with no explanation of it's origin.

Ignition Timing

https://i.imgur.com/ZkVi4z9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/U3znhTX.jpg

I guess 4 points to interpolate a map from is better than nothing.

Knock sensors are a priority. I figure a set from the M119 should work properly since it's a very similar engine. Just have to pull the engine mount arms off and see if my block even has mounting holes for them...
__________________
Ich liebe meine Autos!

1991 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL | Megasquirt MS3-Pro | 722.6 transmission w/ AMG paddles | Feind Motorsports Sway Bar | Stinger VIP Radar | AntiLaser Priority | PLX Wideband O2 | 150A Alternator | Cat Delete
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Blown engine, rebuilding someday...
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Rear ended, retired in garage.
2009 Yamaha AR230HO | Das Boot

Excessive speeding? It ain't excessive till I redline!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-20-2015, 09:36 AM
whipplem104's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: seattle
Posts: 1,166
I know the 17-18 degrees is very conservative. That was the point.
As far as the timing map that you can extrapolate from the data provided in those ezl charts basically what you have is your idle base timing and your full load at 3500 rpm and your full vacuum at 3500. So you can simply build a map from this. Look at other timing maps online you will get the idea pretty quickly. Look for similar types of engines. 2 valve non hemi type.
It does not have to be as detailed with as many peaks and valleys. Just be conservative so that you are not getting any pinging.
Typically there is a curve to timing based on rpm. So you have really 2 parameters that you are tuning timing to. Load and RPM. On a dyno you can see small differences in engine output with a degree or 2 of timing added or retarded that you simply cannot feel on the street.
Most of what you are doing in the lower part load areas is emissions and fuel economy.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-25-2015, 11:17 PM
Das Benz's Avatar
The Luxo Barge
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 104
Im subscribed to this build. Anxious to see how it turns out for you.

Myself, I haven't had much time to start the conversion on my 560sel. Other then building the injector stand, and just collecting parts, I haven't done all too much. My free time has been taken up by finishing building the new garage, and getting my cnc machine up and running. Both are things that will help significantly when im ready to dig in. With that said though, in the next few weeks I do plan on doing the valve stem seals on the 560.

Ive been slowly collecting parts for building a 2.5" dual exhaust, and plan on doing that first, and enjoy the car a bit before I do the retrofit. I won a set of euro manifolds and downpipes the other day, cant wait to get them installed.

And before anyone asks.. Yes I will have the injector adaptors for sale soon, making 8 of them manually on the lathe takes a fair bit of time, once the cnc is up and running, I can more feasibly make extras for all to enjoy.
__________________
Just my MB's:
1990 420sel - Winter DD - 410,000km
1990 560sel - absolutely showroom mint - 360,000km!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-09-2015, 11:35 PM
300SD81's Avatar
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: University of Georgia
Posts: 1,080
Picked up a set of D585 coils & connectors, and some fuel rail + fittings today. Not much to update other than that. She needs a front end rebuild and I'll be tackling that in a week or 2 whenever I get all the parts. My shelf of "to be installed" car parts keeps growing faster than I'm getting stuff done.
__________________
Ich liebe meine Autos!

1991 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL | Megasquirt MS3-Pro | 722.6 transmission w/ AMG paddles | Feind Motorsports Sway Bar | Stinger VIP Radar | AntiLaser Priority | PLX Wideband O2 | 150A Alternator | Cat Delete
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Blown engine, rebuilding someday...
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Rear ended, retired in garage.
2009 Yamaha AR230HO | Das Boot

Excessive speeding? It ain't excessive till I redline!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-14-2015, 07:24 PM
300SD81's Avatar
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: University of Georgia
Posts: 1,080
Coils, fuel rail and fittings showed up today. I'm most of the way through machining the injector adapters too - these are turning out great, but are definitely time consuming. Had to order a smaller boring bar to do the hole so I that's where I stopped. I need to CNC convert mine too

Picked up a set of these too, Amazon.com: Bosch Fuel Injector 0280158123 58 lbs/hr 610 cc/min High Impedance Long Nozzle Brand New: Automotive , should be good for 600HP+ some day if I ever get the twin turbos in. Did a lot of research on these and they should provide good idle quality, people are running the 110lb versions on smaller engines (possible upgrade some day if I ever manage to max these out? ). Will probably be getting a nitrous kit as soon as the EFI's fully functional though.





I've pretty much changed my mind to doing fuel first, then spark now. It's more machining and fabrication, but seems easier have in a daily drivible condition. Then I'll add spark and send her off the the dyno tuners to do their thing,
Attached Thumbnails
560SEL M117 Megasquirt-qwgphu3l.jpg   560SEL M117 Megasquirt-zcv3kqpl.jpg  
__________________
Ich liebe meine Autos!

1991 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL | Megasquirt MS3-Pro | 722.6 transmission w/ AMG paddles | Feind Motorsports Sway Bar | Stinger VIP Radar | AntiLaser Priority | PLX Wideband O2 | 150A Alternator | Cat Delete
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Blown engine, rebuilding someday...
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Rear ended, retired in garage.
2009 Yamaha AR230HO | Das Boot

Excessive speeding? It ain't excessive till I redline!

Last edited by vstech; 01-15-2016 at 02:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page