Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Mercedes-Benz Performance Paddock

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-19-2012, 03:11 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 45
Question M104 3.0 24v engine conversion to Megasquirt III

Hello, i'm Kuba from Poland, since i love my Benz and don't want any new, but hate ke-jetronic i decided to make conversion to MS... at the beginning i was using ms II v3.0, but next i installed p&h driver baord, than vr conditioners based on lm1815.... and at the end changed processor to ms III. my Ms lookes like this:


it is placed in renault 19 enclousure- waterproof with silicone.

on the engine i am using m104 3.2 fuel rail with ori injectors, coil on plug from audi q7 quttro, lpg injectors, magicIII vapours, k&n filter....


sory for the mess under the hood, but i don't have time to make it clear, since i'm spending almoust all my life working in hospital...

Going to the head.... since i changed to ms III i can't make my ve... i had problems with map jumping, but i think i managed to make it clear with some petrol filter on the vacuum lines...

My problem is strange... when i cross 75kpa on the Ve map my lc1 start to make some strange readings. I can't lower afr below ~13.2 sometimes 13.5.... it shows afr, than it is falling down very fast and lc1 shows 21.7 afr...on the idle, when i tried how low i can go with my afr i made it to ~12.5, than it is showing error. My friends told me i have problems with my egt, so i made my ignition map higher as this below:


but i don't think it is any better with my afr... for egzample, on warmup it should be around 12.5, but in my case when it is below 13 i have error on lc1, and it is showing 21.7 almoust all the time when warmup is on.... i have my lc1 on my daily driver since two years and i can't remember if it was diffrent in the past, but i think, that it caught errors as easy as now around afr 12. My friend in 3.6 with lower ignition map have readings below 9.0....
I don't know what i going on, but i bought new sensor, which i can't place in exhaust, because i am 450km from home.
i almoust forgot to tell You, that one time after start of the engine and recalibration of the sensor my controller showed error number 8.... after the engine cooled down the sensor was working as before. i have it in original place on the exhaust, i have no more catalisator....

Could anyone help me with this strange behavour of my sensor, so i could finish my project?? what do You think about my ignition map??
greets from Poland
Kuba
P.S. I decided to make conversion because of Pumpish Videos on Youtube...

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-20-2012, 12:48 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,177
First thing that comes to mind is an inconsistent sensor ground. When sensor values go haywire its the first thing you should check. Routing a dedicated O2 sensor ground all the way to the module should help if that indeed is the problem. (assuming you haven't already)
__________________

90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-20-2012, 04:04 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 45
Thanks for reply, sorry for my bad english, but i don't use it everyday i have all electronic ground placed together on the ground point in w124 named w10 near the acumulator in the computer bay.... should i give lc1 better ground??greater wire, or shorter wire...?? should i wire lc1 closer to the lc1, or should i take lc1 ground from megasquirt connector??

http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%20CD/W124/w124CD1/Program/ETM/ground_locations.pdf

i had also problems with afr on the gauge and logworks and ms.... when the afr was around 14.5 it was the same on the gauge and ms, but when it got leaner or richer it was diffrent, on ms was for example 12 on Ms, on the gauge 13.... on the ms 16 na gauge and logworks 15... i changed voltages for afr, and it got better... i made 7.4 for 0v, 21.7 for 5v and it got better.... when it was turned to lc1 default the readings were diffrent as written on the above.



i have rewired lc1 today, grounds to w10, +12v to the relay and fuse direct from acumulator.... nothing changed. i made a film how does it behave....


http://youtu.be/RSJ6aOeiDew

Last edited by kubeq_sq; 03-20-2012 at 01:42 PM. Reason: adding a pic
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-21-2012, 05:28 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Bulgaria, Sofia
Posts: 584
First, it is very important that the LC1 is grounded at the same point were the MS is grounded, this way you'll get the same readings in ms and in the gauge, also be sure that you choose the right wideband in the MS settings. Second, that ignition advance looks very high, I run about 24 degress at 100 kpa , I'd take out ~ 7-8 degress from the whole table as a start .... btw have you verified the timing with a timing gun ?


P.S. it'll be good if you can post you msq file and a log with the issue ...
__________________
190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-21-2012, 07:40 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 45
hello, everything is grounded on the same place w10 near the acumulator. i was running backed up ignition map for a year, and everything was the same. on the table near the front lamp i have a label with angles 6-10 degrees for 600-700 rpm, and 25 for 3200 and my friends told me, that it is for rpms without vacuum...so for atmospheric i changed my whole ignition map (made it higher), the car runs better, idle are smoother. i will make today some logs on pb and lpg and i will place my msq... wideband i choosed well, beside if i would choose bad in ms my readings in ms would be wrong, but the gauge would show everything ok. in the lc1 controller i chosed for both analog outputs wideband settings.... i don't know why the gauge and ms won't show any higher afr than 21.7.... it should show 22.4.....

when i come back from work i will make some log and will place my msq... greetings and thanks for helppp
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-21-2012, 09:23 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Bulgaria, Sofia
Posts: 584
Just to be sure, have you done the free air calibration of the lc-1, maybe you should try and recalibrate it (I read that sometimes there is a problem with calibration) ? Perhaps you could get more help from the lc-1 forum ( Lambda Cable (LC-1) - Innovate Motorsports Forum )
__________________
190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:27 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 45
it was calibrated on the beginning and since i have bought it a several times (5 calibrations), last one maybe a month ago, when i changed oil... Thanks for link to the innovate forum, today morning i was thinking about it mayby there someone would help me... i made a topic here to ask You if my ign table is acceptable... and if You have met such behavour od lc1 in your car... i will go to the car to make some drive, and make some logs, i will try to connect to lc1 to check analog outputs if they are correctly calibrated, but when i last time checked everything was ok.

the gauge is like voltometer? i don't have to check the voltages on the outputs if it shows afr??
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-21-2012, 02:07 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 45
i have made another film, i connected laptop to the lc1 controller, checked programming analog outs... both were programmed as widebands defaults i updated firmware in cotroller, bocause i thoght, that it could be coused by the firmware error and i connected logworks to the controller. i changed, that when cotroller shows error my output to the ms shows 1.45v, and on the gauge high impedance.... what happened?? no errors, only fals readings... when i cross 13 afr my wideband goes crazy and shows 40-50 afr!!!! hello?? what's going on??

the film: lc1 and MS3 readings problems....part2.... - YouTube


my whole project with msq and some old logs... tereska alpha.rar - kubeq_sq - Chomikuj.pl

Last edited by kubeq_sq; 03-21-2012 at 05:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-22-2012, 04:40 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Bulgaria, Sofia
Posts: 584
This looks like an issues with the LC-1 not the MS so you best bet is to check the LC-1 forum, if I remember correctly there were similar issues discussed there. As to the spark table, as I said it looks a bit aggressive I run 8 degrees at idle and 24 degrees at 100kpa (timing has been verified with a timing light) but if your car is happy with it and there are no detonation your ok. Btw have you verified the timing with a timing light ?

P.S. maybe someone else runing a standalone on a m104 can chime in .
__________________
190E 3.0-24v (M104 980) turbo @ 0.8 bar
1/4 mile: 2.483 / 13.540 / 175.17 km/h (street tires)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:01 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 45
i have separate ignition map for lpg... it is 5 degrees higher than for petrol. i didn't verify my angles with timing light, because it would be not so easy to do, because i don't know how to do it with cops and timing signs on the crank are placed where i have placed my triggerwheel, but i have everything double checked (trigger alligment) and the sensor is on the 9th tooth of triggerwheel, so my tooth one angle is 80 deg... the tooth on the cam is on the 33 tooth of the crank. People on the innovate forum are suggesting, that i have problems with my ignition, and burning rich mixture... i don't see any problems with running on idle or wot, when the readings are riddiculluse... they wrote me some hint: See hint at the MS-Page.
"R11, R10 C10 This will cause problems, especially with wide band analog outputs such as you find on Innovate's LC-1."

i didn't know about it... did U know?? i don't see why my resistors in ms could affect innovate controler readings in logworks and gauge... i have tried today backing up the ignition... i have backed up in 2 deg steps to 0 on idle and it didn't affect lc1 readings.... as before ~12.8 and loosing it's mind.... i will post logs from logworks, and from TS... maybe U would see something, what will clear everything up.

i think, that my sensor is telling me, that it is dying and i'm still looking a place to change it to new one, but no one have any idea where i could do it alone....

here are my todays logs....
http://chomikuj.pl/kubeq_sq/2012-03-22_15.27.03,1528598181.msl
Realtimelog.log - kubeq_sq - Chomikuj.pl
You have to tap POBIERZ i Polish to download with the arrow down

maybe sameone with m104 3.0 24v could say a world in my topic? about ingnition maps or anything?? would be grateful

Last edited by kubeq_sq; 03-22-2012 at 11:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-25-2012, 08:27 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 45
i switched lsu 4.2,and readings are back normal... i get even 8.0 so this is a hint for next people having same problems... don't know the cause of such quick degeration of the sensor...

this is my idle... pwm valve programmed as warmup pwm idle, because i'm still working with ve maps, so can't use closed loop idle, but checked and it works perfectly
m104 running on megasquirt III v3.0 with strange innovate lc1 readings.... - YouTube
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-25-2012, 09:07 AM
nick.ged's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 393
could you post a pic of your trigger wheel?

you should also try earthing your wideband and the ms dirctly to the battery. (this is how i have my ms1 and ngk wideband set up) because if you are getting various ground loops, it may interfear with the signals.

take a look at th9s thread regards ignition timing;

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/performance-paddock/285406-turbo-ignition-timing-referance-doctument.html
__________________
ce 320 amg
widebody
tiwn turbo
Mutty 'der nail'
soon to be a six speed nail


"some mods improve your car and make it into something it never was, other mods, however, although essentially the same, are not, and make that car a ricer"

if your car isnt shiny, you dont know what you are talking about, remember; paint shine = knowledge. In order to be taken seriously, you should spend all your money on paint, (and get a dyno reading).
Dont forget to polish it often
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-26-2012, 05:23 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 45
i have one tooth wheel on the cam, but i don't think if I have actual photo of it on mz imageshack...


this is trigger made same way as mine, as i helped my friend to run ms II in m104 3.2 in w201...
if U want another pics, i have some on computer, just have to post them on imageshack...
the sensor is placed with piece of bronze sheet to the arm of the water pump??i can't really remember what was it holding... the trigger wheel is mounted on the original vibration silencer
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-27-2012, 03:37 PM
nick.ged's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 393
i run 35/1 wheel on crank, in place of the damper.

i want to remove it and run somethin on the cam.

hope you can post pics to give me an idea.

cheers.
__________________
ce 320 amg
widebody
tiwn turbo
Mutty 'der nail'
soon to be a six speed nail


"some mods improve your car and make it into something it never was, other mods, however, although essentially the same, are not, and make that car a ricer"

if your car isnt shiny, you dont know what you are talking about, remember; paint shine = knowledge. In order to be taken seriously, you should spend all your money on paint, (and get a dyno reading).
Dont forget to polish it often
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-27-2012, 08:00 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,177
I'm prepping an engine to swap into mine, at which time it will get MS II V3. I'm going to run a 230 Kompressor 60-2 flywheel. It's stronger than stock, gives great resolution to the MS, and bolts right up. I know off topic somewhat, but once we start pulling them out and measuring...

__________________

90 300TE 4-M
Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE
104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
Tuned CIS ECU
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page