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  #1  
Old 10-29-2002, 09:05 AM
rainmaker's Avatar
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Join Date: May 2001
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500E Brakes

I was on the track this weekend and experienced massive brake fade. The track I was on was a technical track with many turns. Main straight was less than a quarter mile long. The track has 6 main turns, one chicane and an S curve. Total track length is just a little over 2 miles.

Anyway, after two hard laps, a cool down lap and 2 harder laps, my brakes faded altogether...due to coolant boiling rather than because of the pads.

Here are some pics of the track:


The white evo in the pic is exiting the third turn. The yellow Porsche 911 Turbo (with a GT2 body kit, Turbo S turbo and suspension upgrade) is in the middle of the "S" curve i refer to.


The picture you see here shows you the entrance to the 4th turn which is a long, double apex left hander, immediately following the S curve of the previous pic.

And here's a pic of a cracked rotor from one of the SVT Lightnings that came with us:



(click on pics to enlarge)

I am currently using stock rotors with Textar yellow box pads front and rear.

I am looking to upgrade some of my brake components including:

1) Brake fluid to be replaced with ATE Super Blue (or Castrol SRF...any feedback on these?)
2) Upgrade to stainless steel brake lines
3) Replace pads with EBC Green Stuff
4) Replace rotors (I don't think they've been replaced for a while)
5) Install brake ducts

My questions are as follows:

1) Does anybody on this forum have any experience with any of the following (found on tirerack.com):
- Goodridge s/s brake lines
- Brembo replacement rotors
- EBC Sport Grooved Rotors

2) Are there better components (vs the above) that you would recommend? Anybody have any experience with Fischer Hydraulik brake lines? Where can I get them?

3) If I replace the front pads with EBC's Green Stuff, is it necessary to replace the rear pads as well? Will it affect the brake bias if I don't?

3) Where do I route the brake cooling hoses? Those of you who've put these in, can you provide pics? I checked under the car and am not sure where to route them.

Thanks!

Oh by the way, I spun, twice in a row, on the right hand turn before the one shown on the first pic...took the corner too fast, ASR engaged on exit, kicking the rear 90 degrees towards the outside of the track...I believe I over-corrected, and kicked the tail out on the other direction...then finally corrected and was able to set up for the next turn. Between my navigator (who was teaching me the lines screaming at me and all the lights on the dash "screaming" as well, it was pretty hoary...but good fun!

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93 500E, 43k mi, Pics of upgrade parts
Evo II Wheels on Dunlop FM901 235/45x17s
94 Facelift
RennTech CF Airbox
RennTech ASR Defeat
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Last edited by rainmaker; 10-29-2002 at 03:30 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-29-2002, 03:32 PM
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By the way, I emailed Steve at Ultimate Garage regarding the Fischer Hydraulik s/s brake lines. They seem to be the only source for these that I've found in the US. This was his reply:

<>

Anybody interested?

Cheers!
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Rainmaker
93 500E, 43k mi, Pics of upgrade parts
Evo II Wheels on Dunlop FM901 235/45x17s
94 Facelift
RennTech CF Airbox
RennTech ASR Defeat
RennTech Chip
1st Gear Start
97 Range Rover 4.6 HSE Vitesse, Yellow, "Tonka" (sold)
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  #3  
Old 10-30-2002, 08:52 AM
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$.02

I ran the very same pads at Watkins Glen (3.4 mi, 11 turn & quite fast) and destroyed the front ones just this past Saturday. The pads broke down and chunked, and appeared to leave a fair amount of material smeared on the rotor faces. The ride home was a nightmare-320 miles of trying to avoid using my car-rattling brakes. Last 2 sessions on the track were less than a blast, too; lesson learned, run track-specific pads on a track. No Way, no how will ANY street pad hold up on anything more than an autocross. I plan to pick up Porterfields next, but front only; the Textars do fine on the rear, at least for me. In your case I suggest EBC Red Stuff rather than Green for track use (I've used the Red several times and they worked well for me; however, they only lasted 100 miles of track use-1 day, 1 set of pads)

To remedy my situation, yesterday I had my rotors resurfaced and my brakes are back to normal (new Textar Yellow Box pads installed). FWIW I ran on day old Ate Typ 200 amber fluid (same as Super Blue) and it never boiled. Also, be advised I have E500 320mm directionally vented front brakes, and am running slotted rotors (had OE rotors CNC slotted locally).

As to slotted/drilled rotors, I'd stay away from drilled, and I'd only do slotted if you don't mind extra noise...they can be a bit louder than OE. And I can't say whether the slots help or not, but they look cool

I like SS lines. I got mine for under $100 at www.germanautoparts.com; as I understand, they are fabricated on the West Coast by a dealer that races Porsches. My only reservation is that they don't clip properly in front, using the OE fasteners-I wrapped the brake line-SS line connection in Velcro to keep it from scuffing. In any case, make sure they are 3 layer SS/Kevlar/silicone lines.

I had excellent results with a set of Brembo rotors I got at the MBZ dealer once, but they were the only set I've ever had. Do they make them for your car? EBC makes a good product, so if they have this application then I'd be willing to try them.

Don't sweat any brake bias issues - you'll never know, even if you go to a VERY grippy pad (like the Green)

Lastly, brake ducts are a great idea - this winter I plan to rig a vent that will direct air into the hub area, thereby increasing the flow to the factory-designed brake cooling process. In the directional setups, air is drawn thru the rotors from the center outward, so I want to enhance this (there's already a hole in the backing plate, which I plan to attach the venting hose to)

Hope this helps
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2014 E63S Estate
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1995 E500
1986 Porsche 944 turbo
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  #4  
Old 10-30-2002, 11:02 PM
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So how was it...

Michael,
How did you like Watkins Glen as I ran there in May and it rained most of the time except for the second day...later afternoon? Most got fed up with the weather so we grouped many together and got lots of track time!

What organization were you running with there? Curious to know what speed you got up to before the busstop braking area. Great track and plan to return next year....but only if they promise NO rain. Sorry to hear of your boring trip home...what an exercise!

Regarding the EBC pads, the mfg. only recommends green pads for cars under 3000 pounds and a 500E is quite a bit more. The ATE nuclear 'slotted' rotors are quiet and do a good job. For better rotor life and pad wear, have the rotors cryo treated before use. I also use ATE blue and its great, Castrol in the old days left me 'brakeless' at Talladega once so I won't use it!

Tobias MB
4 MBs
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  #5  
Old 10-31-2002, 06:33 AM
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I failed to mention that my front rotors ARE cryotreated - definitely helps them sustain a good beating!


I ran with TracQuest at The Glen. They primarily organize west coast events, but do a few a year at The Glen as well as Mid Ohio (a track I want to run next year)

As to speeds, I didn't get much over 125MPH heading to the Bus Stop - but I was driving VERY conservatively (after watching a fellow instructor ball up his 911 on the 1st lap) and think in the dry I would see 135 or so. I really like that track

Perhaps we'll see you there next year! Sorry I missed your "Northern" exposure this year, but we'll try and hook up during the upcoming season - I plan to spend a lot of time at the track
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2014 E63S Estate
2006 SLK55
1995 E500
1986 Porsche 944 turbo
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  #6  
Old 10-31-2002, 09:33 AM
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The First??

On the first lap!....how stupid. Instructors should know you let the tires warm up before running hard. Demote him (her) back to the student category!! Think he learned the hard way.

Was wondering what group b/c I was there with PDA and they were back at the Glen on 10/4-5-6. I've been following TracQuest and may do one of theirs next year. PDA has also taken over Driving Impressions as they are going back to full racing and don't have the time to do both. The Glen reminds me of a roller coaster as I ran it in third and fourth only, no second or fifth. Now I'm regeared so that will change. Hit the busstop on street tires at 135....top of fourth!

Brakes...well your car is heavy and with an AT you require healthy brakes to pull it down....much more than what I need!

Going to Roebling Road (Savannah) on 11/7-8 (PCA) with a test day on 11/6, then on to VIR for 12/7-8 to run with the Audi Potomac group. That will be it for this year. Come on down if it's too cold in the North.

Tobias MB
190/5.6

PS: Michael, if your rotors are not scored but just have built up pad material which will get into the pores, just have them bead blasted. It prolongs rotor life and increases friction for awhile. We do this with spares for the TransAm car.

Last edited by Tobias MB; 11-02-2002 at 01:46 PM.
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  #7  
Old 11-09-2002, 12:26 AM
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I've been down the boiled brake fluid road before. When that pedal goes to the floor, it gets your attention real quick! My '90 911 had brakes that were too small for my track uses. Cooling air ducted into the center of the rotor & Castol SRF solved the problem. You won't find a better brake fluid, period. Porsche runs it in all the factory comp. cars in fact, I just bought a Super Cup & that's the only fluid it has ever had in it. Like Michael, I have mixed emotions about the drilled/slotted rotors. Drilled rotors will eventually crack & the slotted ones will wear pads quicker due to the slot edges. I think I would try cooling & SRF first and stick with solid rotors. My 2 bits.
Jay
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'93 500E (totaled 9/11 by a clueless idiot)
'01 CL55
'95 E300 Diesel
'90 Porsche Carrera 2(supercharged)
'03 Porsche Supercup
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  #8  
Old 11-09-2002, 02:50 AM
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Castrol SRF

I wouldn't mine changing my brake fluid to Castrol SRF but how often would I have to flush? Is it more hygroscopic than, say, ATE blue/amber?
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Rainmaker
93 500E, 43k mi, Pics of upgrade parts
Evo II Wheels on Dunlop FM901 235/45x17s
94 Facelift
RennTech CF Airbox
RennTech ASR Defeat
RennTech Chip
1st Gear Start
97 Range Rover 4.6 HSE Vitesse, Yellow, "Tonka" (sold)
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  #9  
Old 11-09-2002, 01:42 PM
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Charlie Wright of Wrightwood racing turned me on to it. He said that is absorbs very little water if any & Castrol recommends a flush every 1 1/2 years. He does/has done a lot of the PCNA Motorsport cars & has left it in a season without problems. I have run it a year also without problems & I pushed my little brakes pretty hard. When I boiled my fluid it was ATE Blue that had been in the car 2 weeks. I doubt you will ever run anything else once you go to the SRF & in the big scheme of things, if your time is worth anything & you don't have to flush your brakes before every track event, it's actually cheaper. Hard to believe @ $ 70.00 a quart but that's what I have found. Anyway, good luck.
Jay
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'93 500E (totaled 9/11 by a clueless idiot)
'01 CL55
'95 E300 Diesel
'90 Porsche Carrera 2(supercharged)
'03 Porsche Supercup
www.meangreentravel.com
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  #10  
Old 11-10-2002, 02:35 PM
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One thing I should mention about the Castrol fluid. Since it is basically designed for race cars, certain consideration to the longevity of the caliper piston seals was never a concern. Mallet Corvette used to recommend and use this fluid till they noticed a alarming failure rate of the piston seals. Mallet of course contacted Castrol and the response from Castrol was that since it is a racing fluid, they expect most race teams to recondition their calipers every other race or so, so the longevity of the seals was never important.

To sum it up, Mallet no longer recommends or uses the Castrol on street vehicles.

I use Motul 600 myself, its second only to the Castrol.
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  #11  
Old 11-11-2002, 01:51 PM
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What about the WilWood 600+ brake fluid?

:-) neil
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  #12  
Old 11-11-2002, 08:23 PM
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I just ran Lime Rock all day today - no boiled fluid just trashed Textar Yellow Box pads. Worked great until the 4th 30 min session on slicks. Plan is to sand the crud off the rotor faces (now known as The Glen syndrome) and will report back in :-)

By the way, if you don't track your 500E, you're missing a great time (although I might have been even quicker around in both a student 944 Turbo and an M3 :-))
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2014 E63S Estate
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1995 E500
1986 Porsche 944 turbo
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  #13  
Old 11-12-2002, 12:55 AM
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Brake Fluid Comparison Chart

Having used Motul 600 and ATE Super Blue in the past but not Castrol SRF, I have also been quite happy with Motul 600. I thought I would post what I found from a recent search:

Brand Wet Boiling Point Dry Boiling Point
- Castrol SRF 518°F 590°F
- Motul 600 420°F 593°F
- AP-600 410°F 572°F
- ATE-Super Blue 392°F 536°F
- Valvoline 333°F 513°F
- Castrol LMA 311°F 446°F
- Ford HD 290°F 550°F
- Wilwood 570 284°F 570°F
- PFC-Z rated 284°F 550°F
- AP-550 284°F 550°F

I think the wet boiling point is even more important than the dry if your car is more than 3500 lbs, which a 500E is.
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  #14  
Old 11-12-2002, 01:09 AM
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Here's a more extensive list:

Product
Dot Rating
Dry Boiling Point
Wet Boiling Point
Other Fluid Compatibility

AP Racing 550
DOT 3
560 F (287 C)
284 F (140 C)
Yes

AP Racing 600
DOT 3
572 F (300 C)
284 F (140 C)
No

ATE Super Blue
DOT 4
536 F (280 C)
382 F (194 C)
Yes

ATE Super 200 (Amber)
DOT 4
536 F (280 C)
382 F (194 C)
Yes

Bosch DOT 3
DOT 3
491 F (255C)
288 F (142 C)
Yes

Bosch DOT 4
DOT 4
509 F (265 C)
329 F (165 C)
Yes

Bosch DOT 4+
DOT 4
536 F (280 C)
356 F (180 C)
Yes

Castrol LMA
DOT 4
446 F (230 C)
311 F (155 C)
Yes

Castrol SRF
DOT 4
590 F (310 C)
518 F (270 C)
Yes

Ford HD (C6AZ-19542-AB)
DOT 3
550 F (287 C)
284 F (140 C)
Yes

Motul DOT 5.1
DOT 5.1
509 F (265 C)
365 F (185 C)
Yes

Motul Racing 600
DOT 4
594 F (312 C)
421 F (216 C)
Yes

Performance Friction Z Rated
DOT 3
550 F (287 C)
284 F (140 C)
Yes

Wilwood 570
DOT 3
570 F (299 C)
284 F (140 C)
Yes

Wilwood EXP600 Plus
DOT 4
633 F (330 C)
417 F (213 C)
Yes

None of the charts I've seen though rate the fluids on how often you have to replace them. High boiling points are fine but if I have to replace my fluid every weekend, that's a bit annoying.

I've heard (no actual experience though) that Motul 600 needs to be replaced frequently (i.e. after every track day). Is that true?

Thanks!
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Rainmaker
93 500E, 43k mi, Pics of upgrade parts
Evo II Wheels on Dunlop FM901 235/45x17s
94 Facelift
RennTech CF Airbox
RennTech ASR Defeat
RennTech Chip
1st Gear Start
97 Range Rover 4.6 HSE Vitesse, Yellow, "Tonka" (sold)
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  #15  
Old 11-12-2002, 08:33 AM
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Jay,

You mentioned in a previous post that you were using Pagid blacks. Would you happen to have a part number for this? I just emailed Pagid USA and they claim they only have street pads. Plus the guy who replied (a certain Volker) didn't seem to know his stuff... the part numbers he was quoting me were for regulart 124s not for the 500Es/500SLs, which was, by the way, also listed on their website.

I wanna get a bunch of brake pads and test them myself.

Thanks!

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Rainmaker
93 500E, 43k mi, Pics of upgrade parts
Evo II Wheels on Dunlop FM901 235/45x17s
94 Facelift
RennTech CF Airbox
RennTech ASR Defeat
RennTech Chip
1st Gear Start
97 Range Rover 4.6 HSE Vitesse, Yellow, "Tonka" (sold)
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