Ahhh if only I could have such problems..."what do I replace my Lamborghini with?"

Enjoy whatever you decide on, although I'm a Benz man 100% I still have great respect for BMW...without one, the other wouldn't be great, dontcha think?

BTW...if you're thinking M coupe, why not consider a CLK430 or (gulp) a CLK55? (not even sure if they're available here). That seems like more of a logical comparison

My 2 cents...

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Chris Singh
1983 300D 200k+ (stopped odometer)
1990 300E 123k
1999 E430 12k

http://benz.mp3car.com
http://stormworks.max3d.com

I'll add my two cents here....

How would it be if the world rated *people* with a few numbers? Don't you think a lot would be left out? And sure there would be a lot of mistakes, too. Cars aren't people, but they are a lot more complex than just a few numbers can relate.

In real life, like driving a car for 5+years, the numbers turn out to mean very little, and overall quality of materials and intelligence of design factor in much higher.

As far as performance goes, I like the Lee Scheeler method: ie. go head to head with other cars on the street or track with whatever real life road conditions exist at the moment, and track the % wins.

Maybe we should track these real life Mercedes street wins and send them to the magazines? The magazine will print, "we tested the bmx with 5 speed stick against a heavier Mercedes with auto trani in the 0-30 quick start and the bmx won by .01 of a second so it's apparently the better car, however in the street index reported to us from an independent group, the mercedes has over 300 L.S. points to bmx's 23."

Eric

hello all...

i dont have any numbers for you but i can tell you this...
with my 95 artic C36, i have never been beat by an M3 yet. i have smoked them all. i have come up against at least 4 now. so many M3s in the NY/NJ area. the sedans, coupes and convertibles....

i still believe MB is a superior engineered car....

I'll add that my 500E has never been beaten by any challenger so far. They might jump out off the line, but the 500 always catches them like a lion taking out their legs. The freeway is best. Corvettes, porsches...its great to look in the mirror and guess whether the driver will have a slack jaw or a tight lip! :-)

First off: I'm not trying to put down the M-roadster or BMW in any way. It is a truly impressive car by most any measurement. I apologize if I have offended anyone by saying that on one specific occasion an AMG car did perform better than a M-car.

Second: I can't speak for what happens under magazine testing of new cars or other people elsewhere. I can only relate what has happened to me via what I've witnessed, done personally, or seen hard evidence of.

That said, The 500E is the giant-killer of the MB lineup thus far. I have not seen anthing that rips its "specs" so extremely. If I were in a C36 or C43 and came up against a 500E on the highway I wouldn't even try. (have raced a C43 agaist a 500E and seen it be about even till 3000rpm in the 500E, then really get bad for the AMG around 80+mph, then the 500E just eat the AMG like popcorn in an ever increasing rate as speed built) Were I up agaist that same 500E at a stoplight I would give it a go to a certain speed. (at which point I'd know it was hopeless)

There is a big difference in the way the two cars go about going fast. The C36 scoots off the line and is quite impressive while you are still in double digits. The 500E can feel lacluster to those unacustomed below 60mph but just goes absolutely ape**** from there.(especially from 80-1XX+mph) You would think that the big sedan with the V8 would torque off the line and not be as impressive top end while the high output 6-cyl small sedan would build speed at higher revs. However, the opposite is true. (even though their aero drag is the same at .32) Then again, it stands to reason that 0-60 or 0-100 is more a function of power-weight, while 60-155mph or 100-155mph is a function of power to aero drag ratio)

As for why that particular C36 was quicker than the specific M-roadster that time...driver error (maybe his 2-3 upshift was slow when he was under pressure?), new engine that isn't broken in yet (engines typically pick up significant gains as they break in), slight advantage in R/T for the AMG car, moonphase(j/k)...who knows. All I can say is that the guy in the M-roadster was almost as suprised as I was when he couldn't catch up. The AMG pulled a car length or two and held on even though (by his engine note/volume) he gunned it first or at the very latest at the same time

Though specs give you a good idea, the car is only part of the equation. Factor in conditions, drivers, and random luck and lots can change. My experiences with many different MB cars has led me to believe the old racer's saying of "the BS stops when the green flag drops". Put a BMW test driver in a freshly prepped M-roadster on a hot day and the result would likely be different. In my experience a car in a race is like a weapon in a fight. Each is a tool to be used by the driver. However any tool is only as good as its operator. (ex: A person with a knife can take out someone with a sword...it just aint as easy.)

Interesting footnote, BMW's seem to perform pretty close to their "rated" specs while many MB's far exceed their specs. (also sort of weird why the C43's have been having trouble making their rated specs in magazine testing???) One other "advantage" a MB might have in most races...the other guy doesn't expect a benz to be THAT mean and with the auto you can focus on R/T, watching the road, etc rather than fiddling with the clutch and shifter. I seem to remember reading somewhere that even in the C&D, R&T, Motortrend, etc tests that the best times on most manual cars takes many runs to get, and that a large number of the other runs are off by as much as a second. MB automatics have been known to perform multiple runs to within a couple hundredths of a second.

Just my experiences....Lee

PS Eric/Michael, have done that many a time to many a "hot" car with a 500E. They pull a slight advantage off the line and think they are doing well till long about 80mph when you pretty much yank their undies over their eyes and tie em in a knot...

0-100mph is more important in everyday driving than 100-150mph. I don't find myself challenging other cars often while easing along at 120mph! Most races come up during stoplight challenges and usually end once speed goes over 110mph. I used to own an M3 at the same time as my C36. Dream all you want but the M3 is a better performance car than the C36. I kept the C36 because I was disatisfied with the general quality of the M3 and it just didn't seem like it was going to last a long time like the MB.

Lee's point about driver skill is very important. Just go to a drag strip and you will see how the same cars obtain very different acceleration numbers depending on the driver.

My wife and I use to "race" the M3 against the C36 a lot. The C36 was easily faster past 100mph due to its greater power but during takeoff it was a different story. As Lee said it is easier to obtain a perfect start with an auto than with a manual so the C36 was always very easy and consistent to launch. To get the M3 to beat the C36 during takeoff required a day of testing on the perfect launch technique. Once the technique was perfected, my wife driving the M3 could smoke me in the C36 as easily as flicking a light switch.

How many drivers out there take the time to learn how to drive their cars instead of relying on magazine reports to say mine is faster than yours? That's why so many of them are beaten even when their vehicles are supposed to be superior.

Lee is right, street racing is a very subjective thing. I lot may depend on the other drivers willingness to not lose his license, blow up his engine or wreck his car! I have a buddy who loves to drag from stoplights and on the highway and he swears he can beat everyone, even in a four cylinder Toyota. But one never knows the willingness of the other guy to ruin his ride or at what time during the duel he decides that this racing is "childess" or determines that "that guy is crazy for driving his car like that". I just read an article about the love of SUV's (Stupid Utility Vehicles) and a NFL player committed that he traded in his S500 because his fellow NFL teammate torn off the line at a stoplight and all he saw was the SUV's taillights. He was convinced that SUV's could outrun his S500. Give me a break!

[Edited by Kevin on 04-16-2001 at 01:02 PM]

Lee, my only point was that on any given day, with drivers with equal skill and training, racing the C36 against the M Roadster...in a street-type race (stoplight to stoplight, 0-100mph, 0-60mph, twisty roads at speeds between 40-100mph, etc...) I believe the M Roadster would beat the C36 at least 80% of the time.

100mph to 150mph races? I think we all rarely drive over 100mph! I did get in a race with a Maxima the other day on I-95 and did accelerate up to about 130mph.

We all know the following to be true......

- Driver skill certainly matters
- Driver aggressiveness should be factored
- Published specs mean nothing
- no car will ever be as fast or as quick as a 500E (Especially yours!)

Abalto,

It's very hard to measure even if a same person drive those 2 cars. If the person is very good at manual/clutch, then M-Roadster/Coupe definitely will smoke C36 in both 0-60mph, and 1/4 mile. However 100mph-150mph, C36 will definitely pull ahead...

As a note to Lee's comments about 500E, those M119s are really impressive, even in the smaller 4.2L I have. It's very temperature dependent. Sometimes, mine running slow with 0-100km/h at 8.7sec, and can get as low as 7.4sec.

500Es are very impressive mechines, now if there's a cheaper way to disable ASR......




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• 1992 Mercedes-Benz 400SE
  
• Moonstone Grey/Black Leather
  
• Blue/Red Headlights
  
• Xenon-Look Foglights
  

ICQ#26950002
http://drive.to/akry

The 500e is an amazing car, but i realistically doubt it would beat a E55 or M5. The C36 is a easier car to drive simple. Spend one good day experimenting consistently, but a manual is also fairly with a manual car and you can become very consistent. As for the C36/C43 vs an M roadster they might be fairly even in terms of acceleration, but take the M car on a race track and it will shine. Comparing a MB and BMW in terms of quality and the MB is far superior. We have probably had to take our 98' 740iL to the dealer 10+ times for various reasons. The check coolant light kept coming on and the memory drivers seat would lock up, which was caused by a flaw in the CPU software. One last question, did't Porsche either help engineer or assemble the 500E, and if so they should get some credit for building a fine automobile.

JP,

You are absolutely right. Porsche helped MB build 500E/E500. 500E/E500 are half-build in MB factory, then shipped to Porsche's factory for final assembly.

As for performance, 500E still is the strongest MB has ever build. Yes, E55 may have a small(and I do mean SMALL)advantage over E500 due to its lighter engine/power/weight ratio. But once the speed starts to pick up, 500E will pull ahead, and E55 can just TRYING to catch up.

I have seen 500E whipped a '99 E55(outside temp is about 10C). If the temp is favorable, 500E still might be quicker, and that is, with ASR on all the time......

Andy Kuo

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• 1992 Mercedes-Benz 400SE
  
• Moonstone Grey/Black Leather
  
• Blue/Red Headlights
  
• Xenon-Look Foglights
  

ICQ#26950002
http://drive.to/akry

I suppose I was the one who brought the 500E into this, and for that digression from the topic I apologize.

But since it's come up again and again, I'd add that I'd like to see an E55 vs 500E showdown. I'm trying to facilitate just that right now, but if I do it'll be with a low-mi E55 so I don't know how fair it would be. Regardless, the cars are pretty close in the 1/4 mi...they'll both do mid-13s on any given day. However, with 5 gears I have no doubt an E55 would be the winner out of the hole. However, at BIG numbers (say, 90+)I'd think they're almost identical. But the 500E is the more raw-edged of the two, at least in feel anyway, so the cars suit different tastes. As to the C36 and C43, probably not good cars to compare to, as they're smaller, more nimble but perhaps a tad less expensive!?!

Happy motoring everyone!



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Best regards, Michael
'92 500E
'88 300TE

Hey, maybe its time for everyone to pull up their pants on this one...

If anyone is interested in driving their Mercedes at fast speeds, I invite you to attend the upcoming Silver State Classic Challenge in Ely, Nevada, this September 14-17. 90 miles of public highway will be closed for a timed rally where competitors sign-up for the highest average speed they hope to maintain, from minimum of 110 mph to unlimited.

Some people are trying to put together a Team Mercedes to challenge the Porsche and Pantera jockeys so all MB-heads are welcome to put their nomex on and join my wife and I and our 94 E500.

Check out this link: www.silverstateclassic.com
To contact Team Mercedes organizers, e-mail:
team@mbz.org

Wow!

That's cool! What class will you run your E500 in?

It would be great if someone would take some digital pics and do a writeup on the Mercedes that compete. We'll post it!

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Bill Wood - Webmaster
MercedesShop.com, LLC