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  #1  
Old 04-20-2004, 09:00 PM
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Supercharge 110 engine

Anyone out there had any experience supercharging the 2.8 liter
110 engines? Its design seems to make it a good candidate for a "Kompressor".

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  #2  
Old 05-05-2004, 08:58 AM
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I plan to supercharge an M110 engine in the near future. My project is a 220S mild custom, and I intend to put an M110 engine into it as it's a perfect fit.

The first step I'm currently working on is to convert it to EFI using the MegaSquirt kit. To keep things simple, the first iteration of this project will utilize the existing intake manifold with the CIS air metering stuff gutted. I've located a guy that sells CNC machined CIS-EFI injector bungs. I plan to use the existing set of sensors and add a throttle body to complete the setup. After I get the NA engine working with EFI I'll mount a supercharger in the location of the A/C compressor and get the charged air to the other side of the engine via intercooler.

My M110 is a low compression US version, so it's well suited for this application. I'm going 1st over on the pistons and shaving the head slightly. I've thought long about what to do with the cams, but after talking to many pros I've decided to leave them stock for now and fiddle with them at a later time.

I'm very interested in any hearing what you've come up with. I really like the M110 engine and am looking forward to Kompressing it!

Senen.
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  #3  
Old 05-19-2004, 11:19 PM
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First, I can't believe someone actually replied to this thread. Its been out here for months. What model year engine are you planning on using and what is the actual compression ratio? I want to pull the original engine out of my 83 280 SL and put it in storage. There are a million 2.8 engines in the junkyards here in Houston. I would appreciate an opinion on what car I should use as an engine donor for the rebuild. Right now I can pull one from a 78 280SE.


For the blower, I was planning on adapting one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33741&item=2479409029&rd=1

I was going to try to adapt as much of the stock EFI from the 280 SL as possible to the 280SE engine. Whaddya think?
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  #4  
Old 05-20-2004, 07:06 AM
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The M110 I'll be using came from a '77 280SE. It hauled that heavy beast quite nicely for a 2.8L six. The engine is the low compression version, worth about 145hp in stock form. At first I was tempted to convert it to Euro spec 185hp, but the cost of the individual components would run quite high during the rebuild, so I decided to put that money towards a supercharger instead. Although I do intend to shave the head slightly, the lower compression is actually desirable for my application. However, the first problem is the mechanical CIS fuel injection not being terribly flexible for this kind of thing, so I decided to build an EFI replacement. There are plenty of kits out there for DIY EFI, but I kind of like the idea of being able to say "I built it myself!". See http://www.msefi.com for more info. To keep costs low, I'll use the existing intake manifold with adapters (injector bungs) for the EFI injectors. The air meter stuff will be removed to create an unhindered air path, and a throttle body will be added to it. The other sensors can be used with minor modification to the calibration curves in the MSEFI code. Since the engine is destined for a show car, I'll do all of this "on the bench" while the engine is on a specially built stand. Once I get it working with EFI, I'll do a test fit in a donor car, then remove for a total rebuild and detailing. I particularly like the M110 because it is a very "pretty" engine. That is, the upper section can be polished to a chrome-like finish and made to look very nice under the hood. The crossflow head is also very appealing. The supercharger installation will come at the very end. As I posted earlier, I'll used an intercooler to redirect air from the passenger side to the driver side, since the charger will be located on the exhaust side where the A/C compressor would normally go. While I haven't chosen the exact model yet, I plan to use a ProCharger centrifugal unit (see: http://www.procharger.com/superchargers.shtml).

Keep in touch. I'm taking the M110 out of storage and to my garage today to start working on it. There will be a lot of work involved just to get it set up for bench testing and such, then comes the actual building of the EFI computer, so nothing will be done anytime soon. Still, if there is interest I'll keep everyone posted by way of this forum.

Senen.
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  #5  
Old 05-20-2004, 07:26 AM
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I just re-read your post, and my reply didn't really address your questions, so here goes again.

Re: the adaption of 280SL EFI to your 280SE blown engine... I'm not familiar with the SL EFI setup, only with the K-Jet 280SE CIS, but I doubt it'll work out for you. To make the most of the blower and to protect the engine, the EFI system will have to be able to adapt to boost conditions dynamically. In my case I have no choice because the mechanical system isn't very flexible for this kind of thing. The MSEFI kit that I will build can accept up to 20psi boost conditions (determined by the onboard pressure sensor), which is perfect because I plan to run a mild boost of between 5-8psi. To keep thing simple, I will retain the stock ignition system rather than have the EFI computer take care of that (i.e. I'm building the standard MS computer, not the MS&Spark).

If the 83 280SL had EFI, and you can locate one of these engines locally, I'd be interested to know how much the intake manifold would cost from a wrecker "down there". Can you take a digital pic of this setup? It could save me some fabrication time...

Re: choice of M110... I have to admit I'm no pro when it comes to M110 variations. I'm more of a diesel guy myself. My only experience comes from owning the 280SE that this project engine came out of. I bought the car back from the person I sold it to after they totalled it. My main motivation, besides the power potential of this model, is the simple fact that I can tweak this engine for about the same cost of a proper rebuild of the original 220S engine that my '58 project car came with.

Re: choice of blower... I've chosen the ProCharger because I like the specs. There are many blowers out there, and by the time I have to whip out the wallet and actually buy one I may change my mind. For now it's the ProCharger though. Self contained oiling system, and centrifugal design keeps installation relative simple.

Senen.
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  #6  
Old 05-21-2004, 01:30 AM
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I've got some great junk yard sources. Houston is the junkyard capitol of the world. I'll take some pics and post them. One of the yards is dirt cheap. He's got a 77 280CE that still has an engine in it, and a few later model 280SE. Do you have the full engine number of the SE engine? That really sounds like the one I need to use. The 280 models were popular here, so there are a lot in the junkyard. They got great gas mileage for luxary cars and didn't use diesel, which made it a choice for Houston to Phoenix (and all points in between) across the desert traveling. I drove a 280E for years, and when I saw a nice 107 280 SL, I jumped on it.

I looked at the MegaSquirt stuff, its very interesting. I used to have a hobby prgramming BASIC STAMP eproms, which are very simliar to the type of kit they have. I'll definately look into that.
I agree the 2.8 is the ballsiest looking engine they made in the old cars. Those dual cams and hemi-heads just say race car.

My project should take me a year, so take your time!
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  #7  
Old 02-02-2006, 03:30 PM
Dan Rotigel
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dream thread

C'mon guys...tell me you've made some progress. I'd love to hear anything about tuning these m110s. There was an AMG kit offered, but that is the extent of tuning mods i've seen for this motor. Surely there have to be other resources! Anybody?

What would be a good manual transmission for a 200+hp m110?


cheers,
dan
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  #8  
Old 02-02-2006, 07:22 PM
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Funny, I was re-reading these posts just a couple of days ago and wondered the same thing. Has anyone made any progress? I haven't done much since my last post, but here's what I can report so far:

- I've removed the original K-jet system completely
- installed Ford EFI injectors into the plastic CIS injector bung. The pintle is a little short, but the spray pattern still manages to clear the opening unobstructed. Still need to fabricate brackets for the fuel rail (which I made from extruded aluminum stock that I got from Holley).
- built a custom EFI computer (see http://www.msefi.com) to control the EFI system. Fully tested, but not installed on the engine yet.
- mounted the engine to a frame so I can do test runs "on the bench". Still have to finish this before I can go any farther.

I don't have very good facilities to work on this stuff, but we've bought a house recently with a nice garage, so I expect I'll be working on it more this summer after we move. The plan is to mount the whole setup in my parts car so that I can get the motor mounts and logistics sorted out on the rough car, then transfer it to the "good" one. First attempts to get it going will be in bone stock mode with the new EFI. Next step is to remove the distributor completely and install a toothed 36-1 wheel on the crank and run a distributorless ignition system (Ford EDIS6). Reasons for doing so are a) custom spark timing control using computer-based mapping (12x12 RPM vs advance grid), b) I get to use more powerful modern coil packs, c) the Ford EDIS has a "limp-home" mode that allows ignition to run independantly of the EFI computer., and d) it will look so much nicer without the distributor spagetti. Final step is to add a ProCharger supercharger to it for some extra umph! This will be most difficult only from a fabrication standpoint. The ignition timing and precise computer control of fuel delivery via EFI will allow the fuel and timing maps to be adjusted according to boost conditions.

Well, that's about it for now. I'll take some digital pics and keep the group informed as I progress. I certainly haven't given up - just taking my time getting going for reasons beyond my control.

I've also recently sourced some Euro-spec engines for cheap, so I may experiment with the euro-heads on my low compression US spec M110. Don't know... We'll see about that. I have some ideas but there seems to be quite a void in knowledge of differences between euro and US spec M110s. I'll share anything I learn along the way.

Senen.
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  #9  
Old 02-02-2006, 08:49 PM
Dan Rotigel
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Senen,

Great to hear you're still working on it. This site might help with decoding the engine specs:

http://mb.braingears.com/114_115_Disk1/program/Engine/110/00-015.pdf

http://mb.braingears.com/123_DISK1/program/Engine/110/00-010.pdf

It lists compression ratios for at least 4 different types of m110 engines, but i' m unsure about the relation between euro/american versions. Did the euro version have a different number? i.e. m110.985 vs. m110.984? Also, I don't know if that manual is U.S. or euro. Perhaps for a US because I do not see the widly quoted 185 hp figure for the engine...rather the highest hp figure is 160 in 1974 and again in 1976, both with compression ratios of 9:1 and torque of 165.

I did try to access technical data for the m110 by first selecting different chassis, but it appears that benz (by the time that document was published) had a single manual for the m110.

Still, a very useful resource! Keep us updated...i'll fill this thread with whatever m110 tuning data i find.


cheers,
dan r.
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  #10  
Old 02-02-2006, 10:32 PM
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I've attached some specs that I grabbed from benzworld.org. That AMG setup sure was sweet, but it seems to be a thing of dreams as I've not heard of anyone actually ever seeing one in person.

I posted some specs on a euro M110 that I grabbed of the 'net somewhere:

http://www.racki.ca/mercedes280.htm

One nice thing about the above summary page is that it provides a few data points that can be used to roughly recreate a timing advance curve that they used on the euro-spec engines.

I've heard that the heads are quite different between the two. This, after inquiring a couple of times on whether I can put the more aggressive cams from the euro engine into a US engine. The answer was "NO!" because more than just the profile is different.

I'd appreciate any/all specs and stats for any variation of the M110. The more, the better.

Senen.
Attached Thumbnails
Supercharge 110  engine-amg-m110.jpg   Supercharge 110  engine-amg-m110-specs.jpg   Supercharge 110  engine-amg-110-specs-2.jpg  
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File Type: pdf gclass_17601.pdf (61.1 KB, 655 views)
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  #11  
Old 02-02-2006, 10:55 PM
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I'm hopeful that you'll post your progress on this project, as I've been entertaining different ways to get more performance from my euro 123 coupe. Even with the euro-spec M110 it just doesn't offer what I'm looking for, performance-wise. I've considered a V8 conversion, turbo-charging and super-charging. Super-charging would be my first choice (lag-free, and can be returned to stock fairly easily), but never having owned or DIY'd a non-normally-aspirated engine, I'm a bit concerned as to my ability to design something that would be built largely from scratch. I look forward to whatever information you might decide to post as you move through this.
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  #12  
Old 02-03-2006, 01:03 AM
Dan Rotigel
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This is ugly, but the info is good. It lists the engine spec with what model it originally came from, along with what the car was called in sales literature. Still not sure about how we tell if the car is euro/american.


Engine Model Sales Designation
110.921 114.060 280
110.921 114.073 280 C
110.922 116.020 280 S
110.923 123.030 280
110.923 NV* 123.030 280
110.923 123.050 280 C
110.923 NV* 123.050 280 C
110.924 126.021 280 S
110.924 NV* 126.021 280 S
110.931 NV* 114.060 280
110.931 NV* 114.073 280 C
110.932 NV* 116.020 280 S
110.981 114.062 280 E
110.981 114.072 280 CE
110.982 107.022 280 SLC
110.982 107.042 280 SL
110.983 116.024 280 SE
110.983 116.025 280 SEL
110.984 123.033 280 E
110.984 123.053 280 CE
110.984 123.093 280 TE
110.985 116.024 280 SE
110.985 116.025 280 SEL
110.986 107.022 280 SLC
110.986 107.042 280 SL
110.987 126.022 280 SE
110.987 126.023 280 SEL
110.991 NV* 114.062 280 E
110.991 NV* 114.072 280 CE
110.992 NV* 107.022 280 SLC
110.992 NV* 107.042 280 SL
110.993 NV* 116.024 280 SE
110.993 NV* 116.025 280 SEL
*NV= low compression (SA 012.276)
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  #13  
Old 02-03-2006, 07:39 AM
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yes, you move the cams. BUT, the crown of a US piston is flat. A euro piston has wave in the crown that improves airflow in the head and boosts the compression.

According to the service manual, the carb and FI engines used the same replacement head. The mechanic needed to close the FI ports if the car had a carb. However, this doesn't apply to cars coming off the assembly line. Somebody with the EPC can wander through the cars listed in that earlier post to see part numbers. Somebody posted a URL to the EPC in a different thread. Since it's in Russia, I presume it's a euro version of the EPC. If it lists the 1973 280se or 280e or 280ce, then it sure is.

Speaking of which , the hottest stock M110 motor was the EFI engine from those 1973-1975 cars.

A fellow had a used set of euro pistons on ebay back in December. Only wanted 150$ as an opening bid. They didn't sell, but he cut a deal with somebody after the auction ended before I could. (darn) You can get the euro pistons new for about 125$ each from metric motors.

When building an M110 motor, they invariably form a nasty ridge at the top of the cylinder; more so than the other benz motors apparently.

-CTH
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  #14  
Old 02-03-2006, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cth350
yes, you move the cams. BUT, the crown of a US piston is flat. A euro piston has wave in the crown that improves airflow in the head and boosts the compression.
Sorry, I don't quite understand. Are you saying that the euro cams CAN be installed in a US-spec head? I was aware that the euro pistons are domed to increase compression, but in my case I prefer to keep the low compression pistons because the engine will be supercharged at some later date. The more aggressive euro-cam profile (so I'm told) would still be desired though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cth350
Speaking of which, the hottest stock M110 motor was the EFI engine from those 1973-1975 cars.
EFI? What models? The M110 came carburetted and with K-Jetronic CIS injection, but EFI? More info, please. D-Jet maybe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cth350
A fellow had a used set of euro pistons on ebay back in December. Only wanted 150$ as an opening bid. They didn't sell, but he cut a deal with somebody after the auction ended before I could. (darn) You can get the euro pistons new for about 125$ each from metric motors.
I know a guy that has a new set of euro pistons, but they're original size so you could only use them in a perfect block. He's had them so long that I'm sure he let me go relatively cheap (he's a vendor afterall, so they won't be cheap-cheap).

Quote:
Originally Posted by cth350
When building an M110 motor, they invariably form a nasty ridge at the top of the cylinder; more so than the other benz motors apparently.
Good to know. I wonder if that's related to what I've heard about oil consumption and seapage past the valve guides. Can anyone shed some light on that?

Senen.
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  #15  
Old 02-03-2006, 02:14 PM
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Euro M110 EFI's

Believe the EFI (J-tronic?) version was the 110.981's found on 73-on EURO only W114 280E's and 280CE's, and reputed to be a real screamer, at least the coupes. According to Joe Oldham's summary, the US carb'd detuned only got 130hp, the Euro Solex-carb'd higher-compression got 160hp, and the Euro E's got 185hp with the EFI.
During the 73 model year they also changed the auto from fluid coupling to new torque-convertor version.

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