86 560 sl advice please

[vaneyeguy]

Hello all, so glad to have found this site. I just purchased a 86 560sl and after driving 1700kms I found a few issues. Tranny leaking, oil leaking, rough idling and loose steering. I took the car to the local MB dealer and after an hour he said it's not that bad. "transmission leak - cooler lines / front pump seal / torque convertor $1216.58 and steering issue "both tie rod assemblies / center drag link and adjust steering box $ 537.60. Idle " throttle switch $289.83. I was ok with the quote.
Took it to a specialty repair shop and they say the tranny needs to be overhauled at a cost of 4k, needs a new steering box, running on 7 cylinders and the cylinder heads gaskets need to be replaced at a quote of 25hrs - can this be true????
Who do you believe and is it worthwile getting a 3rd opinion.

Thanks in advance

[Alkraut]

Shop prices are always all over the place. The key to an accurate quote is the degree of REAL knowledge that the repair shop has for diagnosis and proper repair of 560SL issues. The M-B dealer shop (if they have been around for over 20 years) is hopefully most familiar with your car, and would therefore provide a good diagnosis. M-B dealers, while usually very honest, are notoriously expensive. I would not trust the independent shop unless they had a good reputation for knowledge and repair of the 560SL. I recommend that you try and find a local independent that works on these cars. Ask around. Also let us know where you are located, as many members know about reputable independents. Get a quote from one of them. It does not hurt to build a relationship with a good shop...it pays dividends. Good luck with your new car!

[rocky raccoon]

The only part of the quote I can personally validate is the man-hours for R&R the heads to replace the gaskets. ALLDATADIY quotes the flat rate for that job at 22.5 hrs. I am assuming your oil leak is from the head gasket(s). Up for consideration is checking the aluminum heads for trueness and machining if needed since that could be the reason for the leaking gasket. That can add hundreds to the job.

You did not quote mileage and whether or not you have maintenance records. If you are removing the heads you will have clear access to replacing the timing chain, tensioner and oilers, and the cam oiler fittings. The parts for those jobs are inexpensive (maybe $200 total) and requires little additional labor (maybe 3 or 4 hours). If done separately the labor would be much more for a total cost of $850 - $1000. This job should be done as preventive maintenance at about 100k miles since the engine is an "interference" design and a badly out of time or jumped chain means major damage.

From your description it sounds like the dealer did a more thorough checkout than your independent did. I would go with the dealer quote regardless of the fact that it is less expensive. One of the perks you will get is a No Bull warranty.

I have an 88 560SL and would spend the money on it. They are great cars and I just don't want to drive anything else, including a new one. Unless you overpaid vastly for the car and can afford the bill, fix it. You will be rewarded with a powerful and reliable classic car.

[vaneyeguy]

First of all, I live in Nanaimo BC which is on Vancouver Island.

Replying to racoon, the car has 299k (186m). What has me concerned about the dealer are these two things. The steering box - Where he says it needs an adjustment, the specialty independant guy says the box needs to be replaced as it can not be adjustmed any further. Regarding the cylinder heads, the dealer was happy to point out that they were not leaking as the independant says they need to be re & re'd.

We are talking about 3 thousand repair bill to a 10500 bill.

BTW, I paid 2800 for the car.

[450slcguy]

Originally Posted by vaneyeguy

We are talking about 3 thousand repair bill to a 10500 bill.

Appears to be a no-brainer too me. What's the dilemma? Do the dealer, save $7500, and see what happens.

[mbboy]

Originally Posted by vaneyeguy

First of all, I live in Nanaimo BC which is on Vancouver Island.

Replying to racoon, the car has 299k (186m). What has me concerned about the dealer are these two things. The steering box - Where he says it needs an adjustment, the specialty independant guy says the box needs to be replaced as it can not be adjustmed any further. Regarding the cylinder heads, the dealer was happy to point out that they were not leaking as the independant says they need to be re & re'd.

Now that you know a little more about the car, if I were you I'd go back to the dealer and tell him, quite frankly, what the other shop told you. Then, ask him if he's sure the steering box can still be adjusted -- which he can tell from the position of the adjustment screw on top of the box.

Ask him where the oil is coming from, if not from the head gaskets. If necessary, pay him to confirm that it's not coming from the heads by putting dye into the crankcase and using a black light to show you where the leak is coming from.

Ask him to show you the transmission fluid leak at the cooler lines and how he can tell that the transmission needs a torque converter, rather than a complete overhaul. If you're leaking transmission fluid, but the car is shifting Ok, maybe all you need is seals.

With that kind of mileage, I don't doubt that the steering damper, ties rods and pump seal have to be replaced, even if they were replaced before. But those things are relatively simple compared to the other problems.

If the dealer's tech or shop foreman is worth his salt, he'll want to prove to you that he knows a lot more about these cars than the independent he competes with, and that he can even save you money.

Given everything you've said so far, and assuming the dealer can justify his diagnosis, I'd go to a dealership any day. If it turns out that you're problems aren't solved, and you need more work than estimated, I'd bet that the dealership will only charge you for the difference between the work it did and the work it has to do to correct the problems that still exist. But under no circumstance will you end up paying as much as the Indy wanted.

Also, as Mr Raccoon pointed out, having a dealer warranty and perks is always much better than having an Indy warranty, as you can then go over the dealer's head to MB if you're not satisfied.

In any case, good luck, and hopefully the dealer ends up being right.

[donbryce]

Welcome to the SL owners club. I bought my '86 560SL in October '07. Over the winter months, I gradually got all the nuisance things fixed, by myself, as there are no dealer, or indie mechanics that know these cars, where I live.
Interestingly, the one guy I do trust, who has done some MB work on SL's, also said the head gasket was leaking oil. That turned out to be completely wrong. From little or no maintenance by previous owners, there were lots of small leaks that over time spread oil all over the place, so that accurate diagnosis of the source(s) was impossibly difficult without thorough cleaning of the entire engine, which I did. You should do the same.
The power steering pump has a gasket on the back that dries up and leaks fluid, which dribbles down and gets burned off on the exhaust crossover pipe. Awful mess. The kit is less than $20.00, and can be overhauled in about 2 hours or less, including removal and replacement.
The steering gearbox is a 2 day affair (for the DIY'er) to instal an overhaul kit, again, under $50.00. Adjustment is easy when the box is on the bench. Rebuilt ones are under $300.00 mail order. Mine leaked like a sieve when I got the car, spewing fluid all over the exhaust. Now it's tight and not a drop leaks.
The entire front end suspension, steering related like your quote indicates, like tie rods, drag link, steering shock, idler arm, is easy to do at home. Parts again are cheap and plentiful. (BTW, I'd like to patronize the storefront here, but they don't export outside the U.S. I use ******** AZ and Auto Parts Way in Canada, who have a warehouse in B.C. too).
Look near the oil filter canister and check the condition of the oil level sender gasket. I'll bet it leaks, and I'd also bet someone has tried to seal it with silicone or something. Also look at new valve cover gaskets and probably the oil filler cap gasket, which hardens and lets lots of oil out when the engine is hot.
I guess I'm rambling a bit, but the point is that there are dozens of small inexpensive fixes that you can do yourself or can get any competent mechanic to do for you. At the very least, getting intimate with the car is step 1 toward a cost effective restoration to roadworthiness. All of the information to do the above mentioned tasks is right here on this forum too....

[kennedy]

what about the idle throttle switch, what makes them think it needs replacing?

[vaneyeguy]

they said it needs to be replaced as it's idling high.

BTW - thank you ALL for your comments - this forum is great.

Brian

[rocky raccoon]

Idle throttle switch:
Before replacing, I would try removing it and cleaning. It worked for me. Spray inside with carburetor cleaner while holding with open end down. Give it a few seconds to dry then a quick shot of WD-40 and reinstall.

High Idle: These cars use a lot of vacuum powered engine controls. High idle can often be isolated to a vacuum leak. Please check hoses and fittings carefully. There is one fitting often overlooked at the rear (firewall end) of the engine. It is hard to see and access but lives in an oil and heat rich environment thus is often the first to fail. Remove your air filter housing and look straight down behind the engine toward the passenger side while using a flashlight.

Something in common: Some years ago, I had the pleasure to liaison on a joint project with the Canadian Navy. I spent about five weeks underway on HMCS Annapolis, one of your helicopter frigates. We visited Nanaimo as well as San Diego. Had a great time. You Canadians know how to be uninhibited. I understand Annapolis is now retired.

[kennedy]

where is the idle throttle valve located? or is it the same as a idle control valve or idle slide valve?

[rocky raccoon]

Yes, the same. It is located at the top front of the engine and is easily accessible. May have to remove the air filter housing.

For VANEYEGUY: Does your "ECONOMY" gauge peg left at idle? If not, that is an indication of a major vacuum leak.

[vaneyeguy]

When the car is idling the economy indicator stays to the left.
I had the car in a 3rd shop today, and before giving me an estimate they want me to get the engine powerwashed from top and below so they can actually determine where the leaks are coming from.

[mbboy]

Originally Posted by vaneyeguy

When the car is idling the economy indicator stays to the left.
I had the car in a 3rd shop today, and before giving me an estimate they want me to get the engine powerwashed from top and below so they can actually determine where the leaks are coming from.

Uh,oh! Hopefully they're not going to open up a new can of worms for you by creating electrical and vacuum problems that didn't exist before they power washed the engine. Most MB experts I've talked to told me specifically not to power wash or steam clean my engine for that reason.

[vaneyeguy]

Any more opinions on this subject? To clean or not to clean??????