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  #16  
Old 11-07-2003, 11:57 AM
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Huh?

Normally to replace the chain, you remove the left cam cover, break the old chain, hook the new one to it, turn the engine over to pull it around, and connect up the ends. There would be no reason to mess with the guides unless he decided to replace them, which is a reasonable thing to do.

So if he dropped the guide while replacing it, then that's his problem, not yours.

If the guide somehow fell out on its own and the engine has survived this long I would be tempted to just put a new one in.
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Chuck Taylor
Falls Church VA
'66 200, '66 230SL, '96 SL500. Sold: '81 380SL, '86 300E, '72 250C, '95 C220, 3 '84 280SL's '90 420SEL, '72 280SE, '73 280C, '78 280SE, '70 280SL, '77 450SL, '85 380SL, '87 560SL, '85 380SL, '72 350SL, '96 S500 Coupe
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  #17  
Old 11-07-2003, 04:00 PM
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Amateur advice follows:

Which ones, the upper guides or lower guides? I think the lower guides can be accessed by removing the front cover. I will check this weekend on the CD. This is not a $3000 job, either way. If a guide broke it would be very lucky for the engine to survive for any time at all without it catching in the chain, derailing it. Then you need a $6000 engine rebuild.

The guides should be changed when you change the chain. The guides are the problem. Chains donít break. They stretch and slap the guides, breaking them off the pins. Then they derail the chain, send the engine out of time and destroy the pistons and valves.

If a mechanic has a problem and breaks something they simply tell you it was old, brittle, rusted or whatever and you have to pay for it. This is normal. Regarding knowledge of a broken guide, if it made it through falling to the bottom of the cover, I believe it would make a terrible noise at start up (Chain slapping the case as the tensioner builds hydraulic pressure).

You might want to get the car towed out of there. He could file a mechanicís lien and hold your car hostage, even if you didnít want him to do the work. I might call my attorney. Warning to all, if a mechanic doesnít seem to know what he is doing or unwilling to seek advice; run like crazy because you will be responsible for the charges.
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1985 Mercedes 500SL Euro (Gray market)
1995 BMW 520i Euro (Gray market)
1992 BMW 525it Wagon
1994 Honda Del Sol Si
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  #18  
Old 11-07-2003, 04:23 PM
lynn tassin
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But this is a certified MB mechanic at a MB dealership. Should I still have it towed?
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  #19  
Old 11-09-2003, 10:07 AM
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Certified MD Dealer? No.

I am stunned. If this is a MB Shop, why wouldn't he check the timing instead of changing the chain? 2 Questions: 1 did he change the Idle speed control module, 2 How many miles are on your car?

I believe the MB dealership will stand behind the work. But if something goes bad during the work that costs extra, almost everyone would charrge you.

If you have a major dispute you can call the MB Zone Rep. He may not care (like if you bought it new) but if you are a persistent pain he will work with the dealer to get you off his back.

When I had the similar problem I went to my local MB dealer and asked "what is your policy on diagnoisis"? The service manager asked my problem. I said it's an intermittent idle problem and he said they are hard to diagnose and they usually winding up having to repalace a lot of parts and people don't want to pay. I said "yeah, that's me exactly" (kind of kidding) and he said "I'll take a pass on your car". We were done. Other mechanics could offer no better answer so I started doing it myself...

Keep us posted!
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1985 Mercedes 500SL Euro (Gray market)
1995 BMW 520i Euro (Gray market)
1992 BMW 525it Wagon
1994 Honda Del Sol Si
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  #20  
Old 11-10-2003, 11:16 AM
lynn tassin
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That is just the amazing part about all of this. these cars have been on the road for a long time and they should be easy to repair based on that fact alone. He is simply experimenting on my car. I told him to try all of the parts he wants but Im only paying for the one that works. I said you are supposed to be a certified technician, but it seems you are trying to repair my car through the process of elimination. Based on that principle I could just change every part myself just as easily. Is this normal for a mercedes dealership? Again he is not open to any of the suggestions you guys have posted on this thread. Are there any cetified MB mechanics who would be willing to give this guy a call for me. He has had my car for almost 3 weeks now. Thanks for any help
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  #21  
Old 11-10-2003, 03:15 PM
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Lynn,
I hope you get your problem resolved with your car. I understand you are going to sell it afterward, and it should warrant a good price since more than likely it will run like new when done.
The correct thing is to take it to a dealership, but I have never in my life of 33 years and mercedes automobiles experienced what you are. I would be so upset if these things happened to me, I can't imagine what you are going through. I usually take my car in and they determine what it is and fix it right away. I don't think I have ever had a problem where they replace one part after another hoping that fixes it. That method is far too expensive, and honestly makes no sense at all.
If the car was jumping at idle it is quite possible it could be the timing chain, but a tech would know that after he pulled the cover off and checked the tension. If a tensioner came off and slacked the chain then it would probably end up in the pan, but I have not ever heard of that happening.
My method is when in doubt, don't! if you are not happy with the methods or work being performed on your automobile, and have recieved less than satisfactory service from your dealer, write a letter to MB USA. Express your dis-satisfaction and ask them what type of compensation you should expect in return for your frustration, that is if this timing chain doesn't fix your problem. Good Luck!
Regards,
brian
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  #22  
Old 11-10-2003, 03:54 PM
lynn tassin
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Thanks for the response. I spoke with the shop foreman and he is certain this will take care of the problem lol But get his. He tells me they're gonna just put a single chain on. I just lost it. Im like why would you put a recalled chain on the car knowing it calls for a new double chain. Is this guy just on crack or what. everytime he calls me to update me on whats going on, I try to mentally prepare myself, but I must say he continues to shock me. I am sure that when he changes this chain, he will be calling me to say its still not fixed and im just gonna say "DUH, YOU THINK". Im not sure what will happen at this point. WHen this doesnt work Im just going to call the manager and say look, you've guessed at 3 options now and none are working. How about we get an expert in here. This is so rediculous thats its not even funny any more. I just want this to be over. I have wasted too much time and energy on this project.
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  #23  
Old 11-10-2003, 04:00 PM
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I agree with Brian. The difficult to diagnose issues should go to a dealer, unless your independent guy is a specialist in Mercedes.

I had a hesitation issue that dealer was able to solve quickly. It cost me some money, but I now am enjoying car. I was told that at one point six mechanics were looking at it. That wealth of knowledge is not present in a small outfit.

My independent mechanic may even have cause my issue. He flushed fuel injectors as part of 120K maintenance. A couple weeks later, they failed (at leat one or two did). Who knows.

My 2 cents.

MG
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  #24  
Old 11-10-2003, 04:02 PM
lynn tassin
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You guys the car IS at a dealer. Thats whose giving me all of these problems
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  #25  
Old 11-10-2003, 04:42 PM
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STOP!

The only way to spend 3 grand on a chain-related repair is if you need to lift the motor up to get the pan off so you can get the cover off to get at the lower rails. If you are doing this it is only another few hundred in parts and maybe an hour or two labor to go to a double chain. I CANNOT IMAGINE a dealer that would not recommend this. I am not sure you can even buy a single chain anymore.

You will have a very hard time selling a single chain car.
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Chuck Taylor
Falls Church VA
'66 200, '66 230SL, '96 SL500. Sold: '81 380SL, '86 300E, '72 250C, '95 C220, 3 '84 280SL's '90 420SEL, '72 280SE, '73 280C, '78 280SE, '70 280SL, '77 450SL, '85 380SL, '87 560SL, '85 380SL, '72 350SL, '96 S500 Coupe
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  #26  
Old 11-10-2003, 05:04 PM
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Lynn,
I would go ahead and start writing a letter at least to the service manager. I am surprised at how sane you are after this experience. Someone should be fired. There is absolutely no reason that you should have this kind of experience at an MB dealer. This is shameful. I recommend that you post the name and address of this dealer so that everyone on this board can write them a letter that we are just disgusted that a fellow MB owner has been treated in such a way. These cars are supposed to be a good experience, not a nightmare. Good Luck!
Regards,
Brian
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  #27  
Old 11-11-2003, 10:04 AM
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Call the Zone Rep too.

If you call 1-800-FOR-MERCedes and ask for the name, address and phone number of the Zone Rep they will have to get it for you. They may be able to help you. Sometimes they provide parts free to solve a customer problem.

- Do not let them put on a single row chain.

- Get agreement In Writing, that if it doesn't fix the problem then you don't have to pay. If the problem persists, get them to sign off that it did not fix the problem.

I ask again, how many miles ore on your car?

BTW, I once called 1-800-FOR-MERCedes and didn't get a call back for a week. I posted it on the Mercedes Club web site and within 3 hours got a call at 6:00 PM Eastern time from a technical rep. Was it a coincidence? I think not. Do you belong to the Mercedes Benz Club of America?
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1985 Mercedes 500SL Euro (Gray market)
1995 BMW 520i Euro (Gray market)
1992 BMW 525it Wagon
1994 Honda Del Sol Si
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  #28  
Old 11-11-2003, 10:20 AM
lynn tassin
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Thanks for all of the help. The car has 80k original miles. I asked him to guarantee the timing chain will take of the problem and he says he cant do it. It could be many other things. I asked him how many parts we would have to go through before he feels confident. This is the 3rd part so far. If this doesnt work Im calling the dealership owner
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  #29  
Old 11-11-2003, 12:02 PM
lynn tassin
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I called the number you provided and asked for a zone rep. They said that was unneccesary and that they would help me. I wasnt sure what to tell them so I said that I would call back. Should I wait until he tries this repair before telling them my problem or should I do it now. Im not sure what approach to take.
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  #30  
Old 11-11-2003, 02:02 PM
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Tell them that you think your dealer is incompetent.

First, get the zone rep information. Tell them it is "just in case".

Then let them know that you have been chasing a problem and the dealer isn't performing Mercedes Benz diagnostic procedure. They are changing parts, not diagnosing or testing what can be tested.

For example, why did he not check valve timing before changing the chain? Changing the chain to a double row is good precaution. I read about one going out in 25000 miles. But, it may not do anything about the idle problem. Why change it before it's running okay.

Offer to fax MB all the repair tickets and ask if the work is appropriate. Let them know you have friends who are mechanics and have a keen interest in the outcome. They should know that if they try to lie, you will know.

Last but not least, tell them that the dealer said a new timing chain would fix the problem, which you didn't believe in the first palce. They agreed not to charge you if it didn't cure the problem. Then when they broke a guide they are trying to make you pay for the whole thing. It's not right. You feel they are trying to scam you.

If the guide was broken before they started, then they could put it all back thge way you had it and it would run until you get it to another shop. Tell the dealer to put it back together and run the motor. THey will freak if they broke the guide because you motor would probably blow up. (Piston and valve interference.)

It's not an easy problem now that they have opened it up. Under normal circumstances you would be responsible for parts and labor to fix any additional proplem uncovered during the repair. Your only leverage is that you told them you wouldn't pay if it didn't fix the problem. It may not help you if they deny you said it.

You will need the zone rep.
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1985 Mercedes 500SL Euro (Gray market)
1995 BMW 520i Euro (Gray market)
1992 BMW 525it Wagon
1994 Honda Del Sol Si
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