Would bad ball joints in the upper control arm cause extreme inner tire wear on my W123?

I just about chewed up the insides of both font tires within a matter of a week to a week and a half. (1000-1500 miles) the left one seemed to start first, but now the right one has caught up to the left since monday.

Before I go throught he great, unbridled pleasure of replacing them, are there any other components to suspect? (Lower ball joints where replaced 10k ago, aligned right after, although the steering wheel did want to stay cocked to the left a bit, but not much)
The car has 178k miles.
Any replies appreciated.

------------------
03/83 300D
07/73 280

Larry,

I have the same problems you have, only they have been occurring over the last two years. I have a 1984 300D 123 with 275k miles.

Two years ago, on a trip to Florida (3k rountrip), I noticed both of my front tires were wearing on the outside. During the 1500 miles down, they wore through to the belts. The tires only had 20k miles on them. Something was definitely wrong. I put in new upper and lower tie rods at that time and new rubber all around and had a 4 wheel alignment done by a Florida tire shop at 250k miles.

During the 1500 mile trip back, I chewed up the front set of tires and got pissed at the shop in Florida. They fixed a syptom, not the problem - told me everything would be OK.

I had a local shop in Ohio put two new front tires on and do a full alignment, but I still had wear on the outside.

I came to the conclusion that something besides alignment was wrong so I took it to a Mercedes dealer to do it right, or so I thought). The dealer replaced right upper control arm and three ball joints and realigned it.

The problem was better, but then I started wearing noticably on the inside in 10k miles. (But the dealer definitely did the best job of the four alignments).

I found a local mercedes specialist who said alignment hadn't truly been done because the bolts were so badly rusted on some of the adjustments. I had the new Mercedes specialist shop replace upper and lower control arm bushings as well as track rods and mounts and reallign.

Ran the car 3000 miles and almost blew out the outside of the left front tire down to the belts. The right front showed similar wear on the outside.

Bottom line: 2 years, 4 alignments, 3 sets of front tires, 25,00 miles, and $4000 dollars invested in front suspension work. I've been able to move the wear from the outside to the inside and back. I feel like Goldilocks here! The only thing left to replace is a ball joint on the left side which I presume has now failed as well.

The car used to get 80-100k on a set of tires. Now it gets 1/4 of that. The car has never been in an accident and no trained specialits can tell me what is wrong.

Does anyone out there kindly have a suggestion? or should I just keep feeding the car tires. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

__________________
'06 E320 CDI 51K miles
'02 VW Jetta GLS TDi 120k miles
'99 Ford E350 7.3L Powerstroke 200k miles -sold
'84 Euro 300D 5 spd manual 317k miles - sold

About 2 years ago I rebuilt the entire front end on my 300D because it was worn out (MB should have grease fittings to allow greasing the pivot points that are bearing surfaces) or the rubber was cracked allowing dirt/grit into the bearing surfaces and would eventually need replacing. I replaced these parts:
drag link
steering dampner
both tie rods
both upper & lower control arm bushings
both sway bar bushings
both ball joints
both guide rod mounts

Then a four wheel alignment resulting in very positive steering and normal tire wear.

Gray Market Survivor:

A few thoughts for you to consider:

Sounds like the only parts that have not been replaced are the drag link and steering dampner. If the drag link is worn it can cause alignment problems that could lead to tire wear problems. A bad steering dampner can cause some problems (shimmying which will be felt in the steering wheel, for example), but not leading to tire wear in my experience. There is also a sway bar on my 300D that is attached to the firewall and connected to the upper control arms - what does the sway bar look like?

There is a chance that a component was not rebuilt correctly (like pressing in of the ball joints or control arm bushings) and/or not installed correctly causing problems leading to tire wear.

You know the alignment procedure is for all four wheels because the car has four-wheel independent suspension - usually called a thrust alignment. Are there worn-out suspension components on the rear end? For example, sub-frame mount, control arm bushing, and sway bar link.

Is your car US model or a European model (I ask because of your ID gray market survivor)? There is a chance the alignment specs for a European model may be different than a US model. When the alignments were done, did they give you a computer print out of the specs for your model and the actual alignment done to your car so you can compare your car's alignment to factory specs.?

Also, when was the last time you had the front wheel bearings repacked and what condition are the shocks in?

Larry:

Since the pivot points (bearing surfaces) cannot be greased, it is a reasonable assumption to conclude that these components will wear out at about the same time (all things being equal). Also, the rubber does deteriorate allowing grit/dirt into pivot points or excessive clearances in components other than pivot points. Granted, sometimes an individual component does wear-out before the others, but once high mileage or older cars begin needing replacement of several suspension components it will lead to the other components needing replacement in the near future (like your having more problems after replacing the lower control arm bushings 10K mi. ago - which to my thinking is the near future). You can bite the bullet now and spend the $ to rebuild the entire front end or a bit at time which will cost more in your time waiting to get it fixed, more labor cost since in some cases because the same component may be taken off twice to allow rebuilding of it or access to other components, multiple alignments, etc., etc.

My $0.02 worth.

Tom

__________________
America: Land of the Free!

1977 300D: 300,000+ miles

American Honda: Factory Trained Technician & Honor Grad.
Formerly:
Shop Foreman;
Technical Advisor to Am. Honda;
Supervisor of Maintenance largest tree care co. in US for offices in Tex.

Tcane,

Thank you for the quick reply. I have a new steering dampener and I can have the drag link replaced.

I am curious if there are differences between Euro and US specs. It is a Euro car. When the VIN is entered in US computers it comes up as a 1980. This is a non-turbo model with a stickshift. 617.912 engine on a 123.130 body. I wonder if there is any difference in alignment between 1980 US models and 1984 US models. I have printouts from the last three alignments and they show they were all aligning to the same specs though.

No work has been done on the rear end. I have new subframe mounts I plan to put in although the old ones look perfect. Never did bushings or sway bar link in the rear. The tires are still perfect in the rear though. Car has 275k miles, last set of shocks was done at 136k. I have new shocks and plan to put those in too soon.

As for the front wheel bearings, I had new ones installed at 188k but haven't repacked since. Is this a problem?

IS theree a chance that I will replace absolutely all components and still not be able to keep alignment?

I drive this car 110-125 miles a day and really need to have something dependable.

Thanks agian,

__________________
'06 E320 CDI 51K miles
'02 VW Jetta GLS TDi 120k miles
'99 Ford E350 7.3L Powerstroke 200k miles -sold
'84 Euro 300D 5 spd manual 317k miles - sold

Jeff:

You should be able to repair the suspension so the car is aligned correctly and regain normal tire wear, especially since it has never been in an accident.

My 300D is also the W123.130 body style and the alignment specs should be the same. However, I do not have specific knowledge about whether they are any differences. But, if there is a difference then the alignment shops may not have the Euro specs. A bit strange that when the VIN is entered the alignment shops come up with a 1980 model when yours is a 1984 model - no I don't have the specs for either year, but your local library probably does (at least my library several MB shop manuals).

I forgot to ask if the front springs were sagging? My 300D's rear springs were the comfort ride type (the color dots on the spring ID them) and started sagging. I replaced them with new springs that were stronger. Does your car sit parallel (or close) to the ground, or is one end higher than the other, or have both ends sagged? When I look at my car from the side the front tire has about a 2-3 inch gap from the top of the tire to the highest point in the curve of the outside part of the fender, the top of the back tire is just barely visible.

Do the shocks leak? A very slight bit of leakage is OK and will attract a bit of dirt, but not a leak that is wet looking. A rough way to check their condition is to push on each fender it turn to get the car "bouncing" so to speak, then stop pushing, the car should stop bouncing in 1-2 bounces, perhaps 3 - repeat on each fender to check each shock. Recall that these are gas filled shocks that help support the car and bad ones will affect alignment.

The interval for repacking front wheel bearings is dependent on the type of grease used. There are some greases that will go over 50,000 miles between repackings (BG is one, but is sold only through BG Dist. to repair shops, dealerships, etc. - search for 44K in all forums and you will find a link to a list of BG Dist.). BG wheel bearing grease only requires packing the bearing itself and not packing the hub and dust cap with grease to ensure the grease stays in the bearings as they get hot and the grease begins to liquify - the extra grease keep the grease in the bearings in place. I've used BG wheel grease on my 300D and many other vehicles (including medium-duty trucks with 40,000 lbs. GVW and are hard on wheel bearings) and the maintenance interval is 2-3 times longer than most wheel bearing greases. There are other brands of wheel bearing grease that will not need repacking as often as the average grease (20,000-25,000 mi. - less if running in water a lot, dusty conditions, off-roading, etc.) such as Lubriplate 1200, but I am not familiar with others since I found the best with BG. From what you said, you are pushing the interval for repacking your wheel bearings at 93K.

As I wrote before, one of the shops could have incorrectly repaired a component and/or installed it incorrectly - the only way to find out would be to take it all apart and inspect each component. Something I am sure you want to avoid because of the $$$.

Perhaps you should post this subject in the Tech forum or Diesel forum. Others may have had the same/similar problem and can provide more specific answers to your specific situation.

Tom

__________________
America: Land of the Free!

1977 300D: 300,000+ miles

American Honda: Factory Trained Technician & Honor Grad.
Formerly:
Shop Foreman;
Technical Advisor to Am. Honda;
Supervisor of Maintenance largest tree care co. in US for offices in Tex.

"I have new subframe mounts I plan to put in although the old ones look perfect"

Mine did too, but after removal, an obvious 2mm crack was found and the center point of the bushing was off by 2-3mm.

Q:

That is a very good suggestion. There may very well be something that is broken or cracked and the only way to find it is a very close inspection, probably taking the front end apart. Also, there is the chance that road grime/dirt may be hiding a crack or break making the problem not as obvious (fortunately, yours was obvious and easy to find).

I was not thinking along these lines since the W123's are built like tanks (they were used as taxis in Germany) and Jeff had not been in an accident. However, you never know and an open mind is needed along with a sharp eye

Also, Jeff is there any rust on the car? Do you live in snow country where salt is used on the roads or has the car been exposed to salt water/air?

Tom

__________________
America: Land of the Free!

1977 300D: 300,000+ miles

American Honda: Factory Trained Technician & Honor Grad.
Formerly:
Shop Foreman;
Technical Advisor to Am. Honda;
Supervisor of Maintenance largest tree care co. in US for offices in Tex.

Tom,

Thank you very much for your advice. I believe my car has sagged a little during her 17 years. I believe I have about a 1 inch gap above my front tires and I can't see the top of my rear tires when looking at the car from the side. OVerall, the car looks pretty level though. From the rear, the car is level horizontally too. I know that the sag is ugly, but can it cause uneven front tire wear?

The shocks stop the car in about 1-2 bounces and I didn't think I really needed them. They don't leak any oil and they look like they are in great shape. I just ordered them because I noticed I had them done at 136k and it was about that time again and I would have them on hand when I had some spare time this winter (read - after sailing season).

My car has some rust starting to show through. It has spent its years in New Jersey, Connecticut shore, and now in Cleveland. I just don't know how many more winters I can take.

Regards,

__________________
'06 E320 CDI 51K miles
'02 VW Jetta GLS TDi 120k miles
'99 Ford E350 7.3L Powerstroke 200k miles -sold
'84 Euro 300D 5 spd manual 317k miles - sold

Jeff:

Without looking at and inspecting your front end components it is hard to say what is wrong with your alignment. Like I suggested before, a post in the Tech or Diesel discussion may yield info from folks with the same/similar problems. That said, here are some other thoughts/observations/suggestions.

I asked about your car's exposure to salt because several suspension components are mounted in the body and bad salt damage could compromise the structural integrity of these mounting points (for example, the upper control arms, possibly the track rod mounts, and the top of the springs).

Spring sag can cause alignment problems leading to abnormal tire wear. I measured the front tire to wheel well cut-out clearance - mine is just a bit over 2 inches (like 2 1/8 - 2 3/16, I was estimating the clearance in my earlier reply) and I know my front springs have not sagged because I measured them vs. the MB spec. when I took them off to rebuild the front end. If you have ever raised the entire the front end you will notice that as the tires are raised the bottom of the tires tilt inward when viewed from the front end of the car (and the outer portion of the tires are the last in contact with the ground). If the springs have lost their ability to support the car (remember the diesel engine is very heavy, esp. compared to a gas engine) then the front end will sit lower and the inside portion of the tire will have more contact with the road surface and more wear (recall the MB front end/back end & tires do not move straight up and down, but instead move in a curve). The only way to know for sure if the springs have too much sag is to remove them and measure them (of course, springs that have sagged so far that it is easily seen obviously need replacement).

From the technical info I have and experience, excessive spring sag cannot be corrected by alignment.

Also, wheel bearings that are not properly packed and adjusted can cause abnormal tire wear. Hence, my question about when the last time the wheel bearings were packed with grease.

However, you wrote that the abnormal tire wear has moved from the outside part of the tires, then to the inside, and now is back on the outside portion. To me this change in tire wear patterns would indicate that there is a chance the alignment adjustments for camber are not being made correctly and the front end springs may have some effect but are not the only problem because the 1+ inch. difference in the measurement between your car's front tire to wheel well cut-out and mine may or may not indicate too much spring sag.

The drag link that has not been replaced affects the toe-in of the alignment. As you look at the front end of the car, toe-in is the adjustment that will turn the tires inward just slightly. Camber is the relationship of the tire's bottom/contact point to the road surface (parallel or adj. for more inner tire contact or outer tire contact). Toe-in problems usually cause the tire tread to feather or pull up in one place. Camber problems usually cause the tire to abnormally wear on the inside or outside - as your problem seems to indicate.

Last, the components that were rebuilt and/or replaced may not have been correctly rebuilt and/or replaced. Also, as was suggested, something could be cracked or broken - did you (or significant other, wire, child, friend, etc.) ever hit a bad pothole or run over something?

Hope this helps some.

Tom

__________________
America: Land of the Free!

1977 300D: 300,000+ miles

American Honda: Factory Trained Technician & Honor Grad.
Formerly:
Shop Foreman;
Technical Advisor to Am. Honda;
Supervisor of Maintenance largest tree care co. in US for offices in Tex.

Did you solve your tire wear nightmare?

I have had three 123 body cars and one 126, I own two 124 models now. With ALL of them I replaced the front and rear sway bar rubber bushings.

The 123's and the 126's share the common design of having the front sway bars mounted high and an integral part of the suspension. Read: big pain to replace BUT VERY worth replacing. The rear bushings on all are easy.

Jeff

The last servicing seemed to have done the trick....

I had the idler arm bushings replaced, steering dampener, and front and rear sway bar bushings and now things seem to be OK...of course, now every component has been replaced.

Thanks for asking.....

__________________
'06 E320 CDI 51K miles
'02 VW Jetta GLS TDi 120k miles
'99 Ford E350 7.3L Powerstroke 200k miles -sold
'84 Euro 300D 5 spd manual 317k miles - sold

Jeff:

Glad to read that you solved your alignment problem! Man, that took a lot to get the alignment correct - I should knock on wood that I did not have to replace the sway bar bushings, but then mine are in good condition. Now, I am rebuilding the engine. After the engine rebuild the only things left are some minor repairs (vacuum locks for the trunk and fuel filler door) and some interior work (not much). Oh well, always something to do!

Good Luck!
Tom

__________________
America: Land of the Free!

1977 300D: 300,000+ miles

American Honda: Factory Trained Technician & Honor Grad.
Formerly:
Shop Foreman;
Technical Advisor to Am. Honda;
Supervisor of Maintenance largest tree care co. in US for offices in Tex.

Hi Guys , anybody here got a picture showing the sub-frame mount, control arm bushing, and sway bar link and any other bushings that I might need to change (as suggested by tcane) in my 1987 W124 230 E ?

sure wld appreciate it if anybody could post such a picture so i cld use it to id parts for my rear suspension work on Saturday (this weekend).

thanks in advance.

__________________
1986 230E (revisions on the way)