Moab Utah Trip Pics - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Jim Anderson · #16 10-08-2002, 06:17 PM

Are you saying you haul the Mog with the G, or the G with the Mog?

Or haul the Mog with the G till you get the G stuck, then haul the G with the Mog

G-Man · #17 10-09-2002, 10:13 AM

Get the G stuck??? Never

I meant that I can haul both at once on a gooseneck trailer. The mog is a little slow to be going cross country in.

G-Man · #18 10-10-2002, 05:10 PM

If you think Pietschman is biased against the ML, who would you reccomend that has concrete actual real world experience with both? I guess I kind of see the bias going the other direction with Harold. He doesn't even own a G anymore, that I am aware of. He is quite enomored with his ML. I think he gives an accurate portraital of the differences. Don't be sour grapes because the guy doesn't support your side.

Adding larger tires to the ML is likely to exacerbate the 4ETS shortcomings, not help them. So I am not quite sure where you are going with that part. I would also take issue with the adding of lockers to an ML. Did you know that every axle shaft, u-joint and CV joint in the G is designed to withstand full engine torque in low range? That is a tremendous amount of twist. It is quite overdone. I highly doubt the ML is made to that military tough spec. This is why when you add lockers to Jeeps, Rovers, Toyotas, etc, that they break axles and u-joints. Sure you can add lockers but, the ramifications of doing so are rarely considered.

What do I make of the MLs overall capabilities? Well Tracy, it was my full intention to get my wife into an ML after the S600. We took extended drives in both a new ML500 and an ML55. She uses her car on the road. It was highly unlikely that the vehicle we chose for her would be an off-roader. After all, we already had a G. Both of those truck are darn quick

Then we drove the G500. I am sorry but they just do not compare. I do not like the pinched off sightline of the aerodynamic ML. The view out in any given direction is compromised compared to the G500. The cargo space is also much less useable. The G is a big box

The rear seating in the ML is also much more clausterphobic than the towering G. Neither of us like the ride, it is pretty choppy, much better than an X5 but not as composed as the G IMO. Certainly the ML can outcorner and outbrake the G but, the margins are not great enough to be useful in a street driven truck, especially when my wife is driving it. We have a road burner already if thats the mood she is in. The final concern after deciding that we both preferred the G's space and driving dynamics was the reliability. I have had G's for years, they have been by far the most solid reliable vehicles I have ever owned. I have been known to change cars like underwear, there have been a few:p While the ML has gotten better and, may be a very solid piece, it is undeniably a greater risk than the G. I have grave concerns about anything assembled in the US. Lets face it, most folks here just don't give a darn anymore, no pride. I understand from people who have recently visited Graz where the G is built that this is NOT the case. It makes me feel better

to know somebody takes pride in what they build still.

I am far from an ML hater, I actually consider them to be the best of their ilk. I just don't consider them in the same catagory as the G. Someday when you have the resources, I would be more than happy to demonstrate what I am trying to defend here. I really don't think you can comprehend the scope of what the G can do from pictures and words. It is breathtaking and, I don't expect you to understand until you have experienced it. There is a much larger gap between the two than you know. My contention is that for me the G easily meets and exceeds my on road and general utility needs. The bonus is that it is one heck of a mountain goat. Unfortunately the ML did not appeal to me as much for my daily needs and I know it wouldn't meet my desires for it as a toy. I feel very fortunate to have found the G, they really suit me

ML320 · #19 10-11-2002, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by G-Man
The G has never done well in racing to my knowledge.

Brent,

the G used to be great in off-road rallies. Jacky Ickx won the Dakar with a 280GE in 1984. But it has only been downhill since and Mercedes has refused to do anything about it. Nowadays the G is so obsolete, that I am not even aware of any G having finished a Dakar in the last decade. I mean not even winning, but the Gs can not even simply start, drive through the desert for 2 to 3 weeks and arrive at Dakar without some serious break downs.

The G400 you may have read about on my website, who tried to keep up last year, was unable to drive in deep sand in low gear since it overheated immediately. Eventually a wheel broke off and it retired.

The Dakar 2003 will have an $800,000 BMW X5 diesel prototype and probably beat anybody. And in 2004 Volkswagen will enter the off-road racing scene, starting with the Dakar. It seems Mercedes Gs are just giving up.

What counts is a FIA off-road world cup title. These events with picture taking at your favorite hole, or the Rubicon with Generals a la Harold Pietschmann... sorry, I don't take that stuff seriously any longer. One can always build another vehicle which is better suited to that particular hole... Or walk across it, that's even faster... and it saves you a lot of bucks.

Wolfgang

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/pix/rolled.jpg
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/pix/rolled_2.jpg

Gilly · #20 10-11-2002, 11:12 PM

Quote:

... Or walk across it, that's even faster... and it saves you a lot of bucks.

he he he, good one, lmao!

Gilly

G-Man · #21 10-12-2002, 09:41 AM

So if I understand you correctly, you have no defense for the bad information you have posted on your website. You have absolutely no off-road experience of your own, other than watching it on TV, and you are claiming to have "risen above" my simplistic hobby of rock crawling.

So might I suggest that you don't bother with us underlings when we start a friendly discussion about a hobby many others DO find interesting? Becuase I personnally take no interest in rallies I will never participate in myself. In fact, really the only motorsporst or, ANY sports for that matter, that I follow are the ones I may actually participate in myself someday. I watch the SCCA run-offs and run a Porsche in PCA events. Someday soon I may participate. I also watch some SCCA rallying. I almost bought a rally car this spring. Beyond that I pretty much don't waste my time staring at a TV screen and living in fantasy land. You have given me just one more reason not to do so. I would have to share fantasy land with other non-participants like you. There is way to much in this short life to be actually experienced. I find it a pathetic waste of energy to dwell on what others do on TV. You might branch out a little and TRY some things outside your TV and computer. The experiences are quite rich and rewarding. So go ahead, minimize what I do, be condescending, I feel sorry for you.

G-Man · #22 10-12-2002, 12:56 PM

Well Tracy, I tend to disagree with your evaluation of Wolfie. Driving on a dirt road is hardly off-roading IMO. Those are the pictures I have seen and, most of them are from other people. Are we also to excuse outright mis-information from this "great contributor"?

The reasons for the ML development are easy to explain. The G is a hand built machine. This is an obviously very expensive and likely un-profitable venture for DC. As a business decision alone the ML makes way more sense. Does that make it the superior machine? I guess I don't think so.

Interesting that you say they will be offering lockers on the ML. Gee, I have read in countless posts from ML supporters that lockers are unnecessary and old hat. My how things change.

As to the personal nature of the post. I guess I normally wouldn't bother but, I found the nature of the information on his website to be inaccurate. I think that needs to be addressed. The inaccuracies were directed right at the G-class. People that twist facts to support some cause bother me. Maybe I should not have brought it here but, it just isn't right and somebody needs to bring the truth out. That way those without a bias can decide for themselves. Anitcs like those on his site are disturbing. End of Rant.

need2speed · #23 10-12-2002, 06:54 PM

Hey, I'm glad I came over from the Hot Rod forum to lurk here awhile...you guys are really funny! So is it decided yet who's cajones are biggest? :p

G-Man · #24 10-12-2002, 07:27 PM

Pretty obvious isn't it

G-Man · #25 10-13-2002, 12:18 PM

Truth has a lot to do with perception. Your perceptions are based on reading, and clearly putting stock in what others tell you, regardless of thier qualifications. I feel that mine are based on much less bias. I have clearly looked very closely at the ML. I have driven several of them on many different occasions. I have taken the time to read what you have provided. I have thoroughly read through Wolfgangs site. As a credit to your efforts, I now know much more about the ML than I ever would have without your insecent prodding.

First, I think you have fallen into the marketing trap. DC clearly wants to SELL the ML. It is a huge profit maker for them. Would they trot out engineers and designers to bolster this? Heck yeah, would those people imbellish slightly to show preferance the the vehicle of the future (ML) vs. the vehicle slowly slipping in to the past (G)? Especially when corporate profits are concerned. I find it rather niave to assume anything less than that has occured, based on the info you have provided.

The G is far more of a hand built vehicle than you would like to admit. Frames are fully welded by hand. Brake lines are still bent from raw tubing by hand. Axles are hand assembled, as are transfer cases. These are all "G" specific components. Everything bolted to the hand built chassis is done by hand. Likely the only car in the world with more hands on production is Rolls or Bentley, and that is waning as large corporations take over ownership. Call it what you like but, the G is certainly a far cry from being built by drunken stoned united auto workers like the ML. Gee, were there some quality issues with that model? Recall that the ML nearly destroyed MBs long fought reputation for building the best cars on earth. It was the first MB to be lambasted by Consumer Reports. Yep, thats the model I would align myself with.

I would not say that lockers are needed on the ML. I have said over and over again that there are some inherant flaws in the design that make it much less than optimal for the type of things I would use it for. ie; independant suspension, low step in hieght, plastic bumpers, yadda, yadda, yadda. I would buy Jeeps new "Rubicon" model long before I would bother trying to make an ML into a respectable trail buggy. The basics are clearly missing from the design in an admitted attempt to make it carlike. I just fail to understand what is so hard to accept about this? That combined with the S600 comment and previous bleatings about having no funds for a trip lead me to think that, I am dealing with sheer envy. That is not a healthy thing Tracy. I hope you think about it on your ride. I suppose you would like to deride the S600 next? Only a fool, in your opinion, would conspicuously consume like that, right? An E320 would serve the same purpose, give the same satisfaction. Some of us are tuned into these "finer things". There is a measurable difference, to some it is worth the cost. Those without the means to procure such loftiness often lash out. Sound familiar? Why would you deride someone for doing well for themself? That is not what America was founded on. Instead be proud to say that it can be done here. Just eight years ago I was driving a rusty '72 Monte Carlo and my wife had a '89 Trooper. I have worked HARD for this stuff FYI. I am far from a fool with money. I am however a sucker for a sweet set of wheels

As for a website, there are already a couple very good ones out there. No need for me to spend the time to try and out do them. try g4rce.net or clubgwagen.com, both offer photos and commentary on the G. Niether take shots at competing models or brands like the ML page you support.

need2speed · #26 10-13-2002, 12:59 PM

Hi Guys:

A couple of points...this thread (the 2nd version) started out so nice but seems headed in the same direction as before. Heads up guys!

Second, I feel like I have a foot in both camps. Passions aside, the discussion is interesting because it contrasts two very different philosophies about what we value in a motor vehicle.

I'll declare up front that my wife owns an ML320 that has never seen a dirt trail. She enjoys the height advantage over other vehicles and has put lots and lots of miles on the odometer. I've found it to be a very comfortable highway vehicle, quiet and very stable in crosswinds. Also, the ESP has proven itself during winter driving (saved my ass once on an icy off-ramp in the mountains during a blizzard, whew!). I also enjoyed thrashing an ML320 and ML55 at a MB-sponsored demo event that included more on than off road driving. Its a really good urban assault vehicle ESPECIALLY FOR THE PRICE!!

On the other hand, I'd buy a G-Wagon tomorrow EXCEPT FOR THE PRICE!! My first MB was a W210 E320, which I kept for a couple of months and found very disappointing in terms of build quality and driving feel. The trade to a W124 E500 was an absolute revelation. "Old World" it may be, but that baby is really screwed together. I sense the G-Wagon was, and is, built with the same ethos...perhaps also shared with the R129 SL coupes??

The G-Wagon, it seems to me, is the last representation of MB's Old World values. Twenty years from now nobody will remember what those vehicles were like and this discussion will be moot outside of collector's circles. During the transition to New World realities that MB is undergoing (think of it...A-Klasse to Maybach - the broadest market coverage in their history!), we are all cautious about what may be lost but excited about what is to come (W211 E55 AMG...need I say more?).

This "argument" isn't about which is better. You don't even have concensus about what measures you're comparing so its a no-win scenario for either camp. Its really about personal values and how can either side say the other is wrong?

G-Man · #27 10-13-2002, 09:55 PM

Hi Dean,

Welcome the the viper pit

I think that there is an underlying theme here. It may be hard to spot with all of the other stuff being thrown in there but, there is a theme.

I see the ML in a similar light as you do. I have repeatedly stated that the ML is a great vehicle. It is the best in its class IMO. But its class is the new generation of on road 4x4s. Fully independant suspensions, traction control systems, low step in hieght, carlike road manners. Nothing wrong with that, never said there was.

Some of my opponents in the "argument" seem to think that the ML is as good, or in some cases a better vehicle for off-road use. Now of course we enter the question, what do we define as "off-roading". For my side, I use the term to describe what most americans define off-roading as, whether it be in Jeeps, Landcruisers, or a G-Wagen. It is low speed obstacle hopping, mountain climbing, exploring type of off-highway travel. This is something the G was clearly designed for from the outset and, it excels at it.

Some in the ML crowd are trying to make the case that the ML fits the bill for this niche. I disagree, it is much more of a road car and far to compromised for that role to be able to compete with the likes of the G in any serious off-roading.

Now we have another camp saying that because of the MLs success in FIA rallying, the ML is a BETTER off-road vehicle. That form of racing really has no practical application for the masses, and certainly not for the general publics intended use of either vehicle. Besides, I suspect that after a race like that the ML is reduced to a quivering bowl of jello, thrown away, and replaced. Again, hardly a rational, practical comparison.

In a sense you are correct. Those of us driving G-wagens do so to meet a certain set of needs, real or perceived. Same goes for the ML folks. Nothing wrong with that. I have just been trying to impress upon the ML guys that there is a vast difference between the two vehicles, on many fronts. I keep being told otherwise, that the ML is a near match to the G. That is why this continues to around and around.

The tough part about this is that I am basing my opinions on my real world experience and, first hand experience of others. I feel that the ML guys are reading from a book, without any real experiences of their own regarding off road adventures. We keep inviting them to come out and play

So far no takers, that is very telling in its own right.

I will be OK with the whole thing when I get an admission that the ML is no match for the G off-road. I am willing to conceed that the G is no match for the ML on the road. See, different strokes! I just get a littel tired of being told I don't know what I am talking about by someone with no experience, when I have been living it for years. Do you see the conflict now?

G-Man · #28 10-15-2002, 03:27 PM

First off, I don't feel "wounded', photoshop stuff is funny, I can certainly take a joke.

Not sure what you imply by the "lazy way", I have put as much or more effort into it as you my friend. Besides I tend towards the harder to quantify personal experience than web links or sales literature.

We G owners are proud of ourselves for our accomplishments, is that somehow reprehensible? The pics represent accomplishments, and whether you choose to recognise it or not, they are rather impressive by anyones standards.

BTW, the bicyclists are relegated to carrying their bikes over the obstacles conquered by the G. Even foot travel requires a block and tackle on some of those

I am happy to be done with this foolishness for a while. To me the truth is rather obvious. I suspect that is the true reason for stopping the discussion. I am out of things to reiterate anyway.

George Gamarci · #29 10-17-2002, 02:36 PM

Let's pretend you're attempting a steep, muddy, rutted, rocky hill climb.

You are going to need traction and momentum to get to the top.

In order for electronic traction control to even operate and attempt to redistribute torque there must be wheelspin. As soon as a wheel spins traction has been lost.

ETC begins to brake and/or cut engine power to reduce wheelspin which will also dramatically reduce your momentum.

While ETC can certainly be of help to vehicles with open differentials, it is no substitute for lockers.

George Gamarci
2002 G500 - Midnight Blue / Charcoal

[QUOTE]

I still maintain, and all of the available literature confirms, that the traction system of the ML is as good as it gets, but it is obviously hindered by both ground clearance and suspension travel.

George Gamarci · #30 10-17-2002, 04:14 PM

Tracy,

Thanks for the kind words. As others have pointed out, I suspect that the only way you will understand how lockers and traction control systems work in an offroad environment is firsthand experience.

Feel free to email me offlist and I will put you in touch with some of the best offroad driving instructors in the business.

I'm not sure there's much I can add to Dutch's fine explanation of the advantage of differential locks.

George Gamarci
2002 G500 - Midnight Blue / Charcoal