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  #16  
Old 02-14-2018, 07:21 AM
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we have had them there since I was in the air force.Russia would love to protect Turkey.
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  #17  
Old 02-14-2018, 07:27 AM
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a parent should die first
 
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I'd love a nice nuclear war,so I could live in the woods.
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  #18  
Old 02-14-2018, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by oldsinner111 View Post
we have had them there since I was in the air force.Russia would love to protect Turkey.
You say more than you know.

The USA shifts nooks around in order to prevent potential adversaries from learning tactical information. It’s such an important and continuous shell game that when they make a mistake it makes headlines.
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  #19  
Old 02-14-2018, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
As awful as Hiroshima and Nagasaki were, they were for more acceptable than what Turkey has done to Kurds and Armenians. Japan was a nasty belligerant, one of the very worst in modern times. I guess that's a vague term, how bout if we go back to just after Vlad the impaler and look at that span of time.
In regards to Turkey and Armenia...to be fair, and objective, one should do some research on Herzl, Bernard Lazarre, and the Dreyfus trial.
History portrays the situation in a certain light..but there are a number of behind the scenes factors 'History' does not disclose.
There is a reason why these factors are not disclosed.
It's up to the individual claiming to know what all happened, who is making those claims based on what they read from 'History', to do a little more research on the subject, before making an observation.
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  #20  
Old 02-14-2018, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
True.

Also true is that the Ottoman Empire had the whole region under its thumb for what, 600 years? There was no independent Kurdistan. Not too unlike the Jewish state. And yes, there have been Jews continuously in Jerusalem and the surrounding region, continuously, for thousands of years. But only briefly as an independent kingdom.

Setting up Israel was rather easy. The relevant countries were weak, non-Jewish population generally small, disorganized and poor. The Jews of Israel, from the beginning, have been well organized, cohesive, well-funded both privately and publicly, determined, had stupendous sympathy and international media expertise, and greater population density in the region.

Concerning the Kurds... They are cohesive, highly motivated, well trained and armed for light infantry warfare, population dense in the disputed area. No international media support, little outside funding other than military.

The Turks are very committed nationalists, have a large and well trained, highly aggressive combined arms ground an air forces.

It will take outside force to create a Kurdish state and Turkey would have to be decimated. It will never cede it’s national territory. Who is going to force them?
Yeah, even when I typed it above I knew it was sort of a pipe dream. Turkey would probably rather exterminate every last Kurd as a way to cease the attacks than sue for peace. My thought for a long time was for us to enforce Kurdish occupation of the northern Iraqi oil fields long enough for them to gain some prosperity. Getting it to market might be tough though. ISIS OTOH managed to gain funding through oil sales and they had similar geological constraints.
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  #21  
Old 02-14-2018, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by oldsinner111 View Post
we have had them there since I was in the air force.Russia would love to protect Turkey.
Leaking classified?
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  #22  
Old 02-14-2018, 03:49 PM
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I'd love a nice nuclear war,so I could live in the woods.
You could do that now.
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  #23  
Old 02-14-2018, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by oldsinner111 View Post
we have had them there since I was in the air force.Russia would love to protect Turkey.
You were in SAC? If you were you just violated the oath you took. They won’t come after you but it says what kind of man you are. If you were in SAC and you were involved in strategic armament.
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  #24  
Old 02-14-2018, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
Yeah, even when I typed it above I knew it was sort of a pipe dream. Turkey would probably rather exterminate every last Kurd as a way to cease the attacks than sue for peace. My thought for a long time was for us to enforce Kurdish occupation of the northern Iraqi oil fields long enough for them to gain some prosperity. Getting it to market might be tough though. ISIS OTOH managed to gain funding through oil sales and they had similar geological constraints.
I agree on both points.

Concerning oil in the M.E., if you have then there is a buyer. For years Turkey has been buying Iranian oil despite the embargo. Unfortunately, the Kurds made a major political blunder with their move to independence from Iraq. It gave the Iraqi gov an military the excuse they need to seize the largest oil field in “Kurdistan” and take control of the city nearest the oil fields.

No matter how much they detest each other, none of the countries comprising “Kurdistan” will cede territory. Disarming the Kurds will be a challenge for whomever undertakes it.
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  #25  
Old 02-15-2018, 11:10 AM
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The Inited States neither confirms nor denies the presence of nuclear weapons. For the Turks to seize American military assets in Turkey would be an act of war. Turkey would lose. Badly.
Don't be too sure. The US would have to be able to fight a conventional war far away with no support on the home territory of its opponent and be able to sustain the necessary casualties that would entail over an extended period of time. The last time the US was able to do that successfully was WWII.

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  #26  
Old 02-15-2018, 11:49 AM
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Leaking classified?
It's in vogue these days.
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  #27  
Old 02-15-2018, 01:51 PM
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Well that makes it OK
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  #28  
Old 02-15-2018, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
I agree on both points.

Concerning oil in the M.E., if you have then there is a buyer. For years Turkey has been buying Iranian oil despite the embargo. Unfortunately, the Kurds made a major political blunder with their move to independence from Iraq. It gave the Iraqi gov an military the excuse they need to seize the largest oil field in “Kurdistan” and take control of the city nearest the oil fields.

No matter how much they detest each other, none of the countries comprising “Kurdistan” will cede territory. Disarming the Kurds will be a challenge for whomever undertakes it.
My reading has it that Kurdish numbers in greater Kurdistan are 28m. 35m worldwide. Turkey's population is 90m. Would be one hell of a struggle to wipe out or disarm the Kurds, they could probably pull it off but their losses would have to be huge, short of developing and building mass numbers of neutron bombs anyway.

Iraq's population reportedly 37m. Syria's about 19m. I do get that UN campaigns to reshape the world are not popular but you wonder if at some point the world will conclude that some adult supervision is needed here. Seems unlikely to be anything other than a festering wound with no end in sight at this point.
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  #29  
Old 02-15-2018, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by pj67coll View Post
Don't be too sure. The US would have to be able to fight a conventional war far away with no support on the home territory of its opponent and be able to sustain the necessary casualties that would entail over an extended period of time. The last time the US was able to do that successfully was WWII.

- Peter.
Turkey would probably regret it but I tend to agree with you, it would be one hell of a struggle for us to achieve anything resembling a favorable outcome. They are, as I mentioned, the most advanced Muslim nation. They didn't seem bashful about shooting down the Russian airplane.
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  #30  
Old 02-15-2018, 07:40 PM
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I read that Tillerson spent almost 3 hrs alone with Erdogan and the Turkish Foreign Minister discussing the whole issue.

We have done a great job of arming and training Kurds. How are we going to disarm and "untrain" them at war, which the seem to do more competently than their neighbors.

The USA has had a long and mutually beneficial very relationship with Turkey. The USA preferred Ataturk's secularism and we are trying to adjust to this changing Turkey.

Too bad Kerry Edwards quit posting. He had some really interesting observations gain from a scholarly trip to Turkey and watching the Gulen movement.

Oh well.

Here's an opinion piece post-coup attempt: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/19/turkey-erdogan-turkish-democracy
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