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  #1  
Old 02-13-2018, 01:18 PM
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Our NATO ally Turkey

US Army yet to taste Ottoman slap: Erdogan

Quote:
The “Ottoman slap” was a potentially fatal martial arts technique used in close combat by Asappes, unmarried paid soldiers, in case they became unarmed while leading assaults on enemy positions in conquests into Europe from the 16th century onward.

Its cultural significance as a form of military superiority to Westerners persists for the Turks with frequent evocations at times of foreign policy crises.

State TV TRT produced a series in 2013 titled “Ottoman slap,” retelling the story of the Turkish capture of the capital of the Byzantine Empire Constantinople, the modern-day Istanbul.

Erdogan said if the American military officials who insisted the Syrian Kurdish People’s Protection Units (YPG) had no ties with the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) were not blind or stupid, they were “malicious.”
I guess it's easy for me to say, but the post WW1 redrawing of national borders that left the Kurds in limbo have perhaps not worked out entirely well. Lot more going on there than merely the Kurdish thing of course. Good read on that here:

Why border lines drawn with a ruler in WW1 still rock the Middle East - BBC News

My reading has it that the Kurds are perhaps the largest ethnic group w/o a state in the world. Some dispute on that. I don't have illusions that they are somehow far superior in all ways to other ethnic groups in the area. In some ways they do seem to be somewhat more evolved, though of course many Turks would dispute that.

Nonetheless, they have been useful to us as allies against Saddam and ISIS. Are we now supposed to bow to Turkish whims on the matter? There is a portion of eastern Turkey that is arguably Kurdistan already.



Kurdish-speaking provinces in Turkey according to the census of 1965. In dark green provinces, a majority (>50%) speak Kurdish; in the light green province, a plurality do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Kurdistan#/media/File:Kurdish_speaking_provinces_in_Turkey.png
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Old 02-13-2018, 02:07 PM
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Turkey is not our ally.
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:12 PM
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Turkey is a trip. Arguably the most advanced and civilized Muslim nation they can be major dicks nonetheless. The slaughter of Armenians and Kurds over the decades is pretty stark.

One almost wonders if we and the rest of Europe should insist on and enforce the establishment of Kurdistan on parts of Turkey, Iraq, and Syria.

And F the 'Ottoman slap.' The Ottomans got slapped down a long time ago.
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Old 02-13-2018, 03:22 PM
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Erdogan has delusions of grandeur as the future Caliph of the Islam world.

Ottoman Slap?

I favor the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
Turkey is a trip. Arguably the most advanced and civilized Muslim nation they can be major dicks nonetheless. The slaughter of Armenians and Kurds over the decades is pretty stark.

One almost wonders if we and the rest of Europe should insist on and enforce the establishment of Kurdistan on parts of Turkey, Iraq, and Syria.

And F the 'Ottoman slap.' The Ottomans got slapped down a long time ago.
It's hard to hold another country accountable when we've done the same thing.
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Old 02-13-2018, 04:50 PM
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Trying to force Turkey to cede some of its territory for a small minority isn’t without precedent in the UN. Think Israel.

How has that worked out?

Those countries never had firm borders other than the sea. The British forced a new concept —surveyed permanent boundaries created to favor British control by taking Caesar’s division of conquered territories and deviding them among clans, tribes and kingdoms that hated each other more than they feared Rome. It worked better for Rome than Britain. We have been bandaging the festering wounds ever since.

However, even without the British intervention these various groups have been butchering each other since Gilgamesh. There is no permanent solution. There is only “now”.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by martureo View Post
It's hard to hold another country accountable when we've done the same thing.
Using chem weapons?
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:51 PM
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It's hard to hold another country accountable when we've done the same thing.
The thing is you also have to compare the time periods things were done in. As an example when the US did similar things to the Native Americans the same standard or worse was going on in European Colonies.

And in fact what the US did is rather tame compared to what the Europeans did in their Colonies (part of the reason why the 13 Colonies separated from England).

By the time the Turks committed the Armenian holocaust Europeans and the United States had long stopped doing similar deeds.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:04 PM
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Turkey was our ally for the same reason Dictators in Central and South America were our allies be and some Caribbean States because they were anti-communist and therfore the US gave the aid to them.

An added bonus was that the Russians and later the Soviets were a traditional enemy of the Turks.

In the Middle East we are stuck with a lot of left over baggage from the Cold War.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Dudesky View Post
Using chem weapons?
No, nuclear weapons.
But that was to save humanity.
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  #11  
Old 02-14-2018, 02:53 AM
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No, nuclear weapons.
But that was to save humanity.
As awful as Hiroshima and Nagasaki were, they were for more acceptable than what Turkey has done to Kurds and Armenians. Japan was a nasty belligerant, one of the very worst in modern times. I guess that's a vague term, how bout if we go back to just after Vlad the impaler and look at that span of time.
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Trying to force Turkey to cede some of its territory for a small minority isn’t without precedent in the UN. Think Israel.

How has that worked out?

Those countries never had firm borders other than the sea. The British forced a new concept —surveyed permanent boundaries created to favor British control by taking Caesar’s division of conquered territories and deviding them among clans, tribes and kingdoms that hated each other more than they feared Rome. It worked better for Rome than Britain. We have been bandaging the festering wounds ever since.

However, even without the British intervention these various groups have been butchering each other since Gilgamesh. There is no permanent solution. There is only “now”.
Far more Kurds have had a continual presence in their region than Jews in Palastine/Judea circa mid to late 19th century.
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Old 02-14-2018, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
Far more Kurds have had a continual presence in their region than Jews in Palastine/Judea circa mid to late 19th century.
True.

Also true is that the Ottoman Empire had the whole region under its thumb for what, 600 years? There was no independent Kurdistan. Not too unlike the Jewish state. And yes, there have been Jews continuously in Jerusalem and the surrounding region, continuously, for thousands of years. But only briefly as an independent kingdom.

Setting up Israel was rather easy. The relevant countries were weak, non-Jewish population generally small, disorganized and poor. The Jews of Israel, from the beginning, have been well organized, cohesive, well-funded both privately and publicly, determined, had stupendous sympathy and international media expertise, and greater population density in the region.

Concerning the Kurds... They are cohesive, highly motivated, well trained and armed for light infantry warfare, population dense in the disputed area. No international media support, little outside funding other than military.

The Turks are very committed nationalists, have a large and well trained, highly aggressive combined arms ground an air forces.

It will take outside force to create a Kurdish state and Turkey would have to be decimated. It will never cede it’s national territory. Who is going to force them?
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Old 02-14-2018, 07:12 AM
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I expect anyday the turks will attack and take our nuclear weapons we have there,for our bombers.
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  #15  
Old 02-14-2018, 07:17 AM
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The Inited States neither confirms nor denies the presence of nuclear weapons. For the Turks to seize American military assets in Turkey would be an act of war. Turkey would lose. Badly.
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