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  #331  
Old 06-13-2018, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by davidmash View Post
I think you are missing the point. One side will be discriminated against. There is no way around that simple fact. Protections granted to one mean rights denied to the other.



The religious right kept saying that about marriage equality. They predicted that churches wold be forced to perform same sex marriages against their will. Marriage equality is the law of the land and there has yet to be a church forced to marry anyone they do not want to. The earth is still rotating. I think equality is coming, slowly but surely. There is nothing the religious right can do to stop it.



We differ on whos rights should be protected over the other.


Avoidable discrimination. Gays have other options for cakes that don’t infringe on others rights. Marriage and who is forced to serve you are two different things. You know theres still places that don’t allow unconventional weddings.

Its two beliefs. One being imposed on the other. The courts saw that.
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  #332  
Old 06-13-2018, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by davidmash View Post
I do not see the distinction. The words on the cake are just words. The only difference would be to names of the same sex and possibly two figurines of the same gender. These are words the baker writes all the time and figurines the baker puts on cakes all the time. Since the couple was gay, to try and separate from the type of cake they wanted at their wedding seems a bit of stretch. They were gay and wanted a cake to represent them. I think I see the point you are making in that if the gays couple had ordered a heterosexual cake they would have been served but then why would a gay couple order a cake that was not for them? Perhaps the analogy with the diner counter does not hold up, but I do not think your distinction does either.

As I have said before. If you serve the public you serve all of it or find another profession. I think the law will eventually catch up.
You see no difference between a label on a wedding cake and negroes being refused service?

In the first instance it doesn’t matter that the requesting parties were straight or gay. The cake decoration was the problem. The message, not people.

In the case of a lunch counter it didn’t matter what the customer said. It was who they were.

A message vs people.
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  #333  
Old 06-13-2018, 02:37 PM
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There is no distinction. If you deny the validity of someone’s identity, you harm the person. How does the baker deal with Jews, Muslims, pagans? Or people with funny names, odd accents, body odor or bad skin? Once the door is opened, all sorts of ugly things slither through.

Here’s another incident that’s been contrived only to keep the courts busy:


https://www.indystar.com/story/news/education/2018/06/05/transgender-student-policy-prompts-dispute-between-brownsburg-teacher-school/670265002/
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  #334  
Old 06-13-2018, 05:27 PM
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Does the baker ask his customers their religions and orientations?
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  #335  
Old 06-13-2018, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by davidmash View Post
I do not see the distinction. The words on the cake are just words. The only difference would be to names of the same sex and possibly two figurines of the same gender. These are words the baker writes all the time and figurines the baker puts on cakes all the time. Since the couple was gay, to try and separate from the type of cake they wanted at their wedding seems a bit of stretch. They were gay and wanted a cake to represent them. I think I see the point you are making in that if the gays couple had ordered a heterosexual cake they would have been served but then why would a gay couple order a cake that was not for them? Perhaps the analogy with the diner counter does not hold up, but I do not think your distinction does either.

As I have said before. If you serve the public you serve all of it or find another profession. I think the law will eventually catch up.
is there any evidence that the baker refused to decorate the cake because the couple was gay? I have not heard that alleged.
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  #336  
Old 06-14-2018, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
is there any evidence that the baker refused to decorate the cake because the couple was gay? I have not heard that alleged.
I do not understand how you are able to separate the two. They are gay. They are not going to ask for a cake that does not represent who they are. As MXFrank pointed out. You cannot separate them from their identity. The words on the cake were part of who the gay couple is. I see them as one and the same.
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  #337  
Old 06-14-2018, 08:38 AM
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Do you think the baker would have made the same refusal to my wife and Me had we requested EXACTLY the same cake decoration?
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  #338  
Old 06-14-2018, 10:12 AM
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Do you think the baker would have made the same refusal to my wife and Me had we requested EXACTLY the same cake decoration?
Yes and I get that part of the argument. That does not in my opinion negate the the fact that a gay couple cannot order a cake that represents who they are.. The baker may not like the words on your cake but for you they are just words. The words on the cake for the gay couple are far more than just words, it's who they are. I argue that the bias is against more than just the words.
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  #339  
Old 06-14-2018, 12:54 PM
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  #340  
Old 06-14-2018, 03:58 PM
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So the refusal was not about the couple. We agree on that.

The refusal was about the decoration. Are we agreed?

It seems to me that is a speech issue, not a sexuality issue.
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  #341  
Old 06-14-2018, 04:08 PM
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So the refusal was not about the couple. We agree on that.

The refusal was about the decoration. Are we agreed?

It seems to me that is a speech issue, not a sexuality issue.
No, we do not agree on that.

It was about both. I cannot separate the words from the people. I see them as one and the same.

It is orientation because a gay couple is going to order a cake for their wedding with a gay theme. They would be denied that right.
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  #342  
Old 06-14-2018, 04:12 PM
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I guess using this logic they can refuse to make cakes for interracial marriages too?
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  #343  
Old 06-14-2018, 04:12 PM
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But previously you said that if a straight couple had requested exactly the same decoration that the baker would have refused to do that job. Thus, he refused the job based on the message not on the customer. You simply cannot have it both ways.

Unless you have evidence, not yet brought forward, that the baker has refused service based on a customer’s sexuality. Have you got that evidence?
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  #344  
Old 06-14-2018, 04:13 PM
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I guess using this logic they can refuse to make cakes for interracial marriages too?
Ole’!
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  #345  
Old 06-14-2018, 04:26 PM
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Ole’!
how did you get past the wall?


it's the same logic and will have the same fate. ending up as an embarrassing piece of history.
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