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  #1  
Old 07-31-2004, 09:54 AM
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What constitutes a "tour of duty"

I was under the imppression John Kerry's Vietnam experience amounted to 4 months as a swift boat skipper.

Now I hear he served two tours in Vietnam. 11 months.
Though from what I understand 7 months were spent as an electronics tech on a ship going to and from Vietnam. Do those 7 months constitute a tour of duty in Vietnam?

Also do self inflicted wounds count as purple hearts?

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Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
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  #2  
Old 07-31-2004, 11:18 AM
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Re: What constitutes a "tour of duty"

Quote:
Originally posted by axlechassis
I was under the imppression John Kerry's Vietnam experience amounted to 4 months as a swift boat skipper.

Now I hear he served two tours in Vietnam. 11 months.
Though from what I understand 7 months were spent as an electronics tech on a ship going to and from Vietnam. Do those 7 months constitute a tour of duty in Vietnam?

Also do self inflicted wounds count as purple hearts?
Kerry volunteered to be a Swift Boat captain. The casualty rate was 75%. Compared to the AWOL pussy you support, Kerry had balls in spades. Anybody who was on a swift boat will tell you that a 5 month assignment on one was something done only by people with real guts, for example, some pilot who didn't even show up for his flight physical would for example, probably not have the balls to go out on a boat and actually fight the enemy while being a sitting duck on a river.

This whole attack on anyone's combat service, never mind Kerry's, makes me want to vomit. You guys who engage in this are doing the same thing as the people who spit on these guys when they came home. This whole road you guys are trying to go down where you are trying to denigrate a man's combat service is the most despicable thing I have ever seen in politics. I have never seen it before until Bush started this type of political attack with McCain in 2000, and it is a new low for gutter politics. No matter what you think of his politics, the guy put his life on the line for you, you ungrateful twit. The only response of people on this side is going to be to attack Bush's dismal service record, something I actually don't enjoy doing, but people pushing this crap make necessary. It would be better for all of us if we just dropped it, but its obvious that Drudge and these "swift boat veterens" have a financially-backed smear campaign in progress, so I don't see it happening.

My one attempt to support a Republican, McCain early in 2000, left me in total and utter disgust with the Bush crowd when the Karl Rove's far right operatives went after him, smearing his service, as a Prisoner of War for gods sake, with "Manchurian Candidate" and "unbalanced because he was tortured" crap like this. It worked there, but in this case its going to cause the repubs more backlash than it is worth.

Look man, you want to know a fact? I learned it from my college roommates, there were five of us who shared a house in Denton Texas in 1974. Three of them were just back from Nam, and they are among my closest friends today. They handed out Purple Hearts like candy bars, to everybody, not just Kerry. It was just a policy to help them feel better in a low morale war. Stub your toe, you got a Purple Heart. The Silver Star, on the other hand, is the Navy's highest decoration. They don't hand them out like candy bars. A major investigation takes place, and a panel of high officers has to unanomously agree to awarding it. Most of the guys who won it, are at the bottom of the sea, in places like Pearl Harbor and Corrigedor. Go ahead, go after the guy. Make my day.

Last edited by KirkVining; 07-31-2004 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 07-31-2004, 08:27 PM
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uhh, Kirk, the Silver Star, although a significant award, IS NOT the Navy's highest award. Navy Cross is and there are two other awards higher than Silver Star before the Navy Cross. Of course, all services' highest award is the Medal of Honor.

Not saying Kerry did not earn the Silver Star, etc, just keeping the conversation accurate.


see this web site: http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ribbons/navy_ribbons.html
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Old 07-31-2004, 08:32 PM
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"The Silver Star is awarded to a person who, while serving in any capacity with the United States Armed Forces, is cited for gallantry in action against an enemy of the United States while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force, or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party."

http://www.fact-index.com/s/si/silver_star.html
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  #5  
Old 07-31-2004, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jake
uhh, Kirk, the Silver Star, although a significant award, IS NOT the Navy's highest award. Navy Cross is and there are two other awards higher than Silver Star before the Navy Cross. Of course, all services' highest award is the Medal of Honor.

Not saying Kerry did not earn the Silver Star, etc, just keeping the conversation accurate.


see this web site: http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ribbons/navy_ribbons.html
I stand corrected. I believe McCain won the Silver Cross, and they did the same number on him. In any case, I think the right is making a huge mistake in bringing on this line of attack. It simply causes democrats to respond using unpleasant facts from Bush's service record, and in the end we all are denigrating people who served. The whole thing needs to be dropped, for their own benefit. The central known facts of Kerry's service, no matter what dirt they dig up, compared to the central known facts of Bush's service to be highlighted, and those facts are embarassing. Its strategically stupid. Anyone who lived thru Vietnam knows the past, should be left buried. It is nothing but unpleasant, divisive grief.
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Old 07-31-2004, 08:59 PM
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If they are going to dish it out, they're going to get it back. This whole "swift boats" campaign has been in the works for a long time - its being directed right out of Houston by a well known right wing wack job. I first heard about it from my brother, who is a rock-rib Republican Vietnam-era vet, months ago, when these guys were soliciting vets to partake in this - he thought doing this was the stupidest thing he ever heard of, and would cost the repubs the election. That McCauliffe stuff was the warning shot telling them to back off. Apparently they did not get the message. This is despicable on both sides, but they are essentially ripping open issues that Bush may regret opening. Bush may not be a deserter or coward, but by not showing up for his physical he should have been tried for dereliction of duty. If his daddy had not been a US Congressman, his ass would have been shipped to Nam or Leavenworth. And that is all in black and white, not "some soldiers said" BS.
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Old 07-31-2004, 09:06 PM
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Re: Re: What constitutes a "tour of duty"

Quote:
Originally posted by KirkVining
Kerry volunteered to be a Swift Boat captain. The casualty rate was 75%. Compared to the AWOL pussy you support, Kerry had balls in spades. Anybody who was on a swift boat will tell you that a 5 month assignment on one was something done only by people with real guts, for example, some pilot who didn't even show up for his flight physical would for example, probably not have the balls to go out on a boat and actually fight the enemy while being a sitting duck on a river.

This whole attack on anyone's combat service, never mind Kerry's, makes me want to vomit. You guys who engage in this are doing the same thing as the people who spit on these guys when they came home. This whole road you guys are trying to go down where you are trying to denigrate a man's combat service is the most despicable thing I have ever seen in politics. I have never seen it before until Bush started this type of political attack with McCain in 2000, and it is a new low for gutter politics. No matter what you think of his politics, the guy put his life on the line for you, you ungrateful twit. The only response of people on this side is going to be to attack Bush's dismal service record, something I actually don't enjoy doing, but people pushing this crap make necessary. It would be better for all of us if we just dropped it, but its obvious that Drudge and these "swift boat veterens" have a financially-backed smear campaign in progress, so I don't see it happening.

My one attempt to support a Republican, McCain early in 2000, left me in total and utter disgust with the Bush crowd when the Karl Rove's far right operatives went after him, smearing his service, as a Prisoner of War for gods sake, with "Manchurian Candidate" and "unbalanced because he was tortured" crap like this. It worked there, but in this case its going to cause the repubs more backlash than it is worth.

Look man, you want to know a fact? I learned it from my college roommates, there were five of us who shared a house in Denton Texas in 1974. Three of them were just back from Nam, and they are among my closest friends today. They handed out Purple Hearts like candy bars, to everybody, not just Kerry. It was just a policy to help them feel better in a low morale war. Stub your toe, you got a Purple Heart. The Silver Star, on the other hand, is the Navy's highest decoration. They don't hand them out like candy bars. A major investigation takes place, and a panel of high officers has to unanomously agree to awarding it. Most of the guys who won it, are at the bottom of the sea, in places like Pearl Harbor and Corrigedor. Go ahead, go after the guy. Make my day.
Actually I wasn't directly attacking Kerry war record. Mainly seeking clarification as what certain terminology means.

But since you mention it Kerry leaves himself wide open to attack on this by making a big deal out of his vietnam experience and self proclaimed war hero status. The only heroes' in war are the ones who didn't make it back.
If kerry is such a big hero why doesn't he disclose his military medical records? hummm?
If you want to proclaim yourself a hero like this he should expect a little scrutiny.

Mostly though what the vietnam veterans have a problem with is Kerry's lying before congress denouncing the war. His actions there were treasonable as was his colaboration with north vietnamesse during his organizing anti war demonstrations.
Kerry should be indited not nominated.

By the way the nationguard did not let any " pussies" fly F104's
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Old 07-31-2004, 09:33 PM
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Re: Re: Re: What constitutes a "tour of duty"

Quote:
Originally posted by axlechassis
Actually I wasn't directly attacking Kerry war record. Mainly seeking clarification as what certain terminology means.

But since you mention it Kerry leaves himself wide open to attack on this by making a big deal out of his vietnam experience and self proclaimed war hero status. The only heroes' in war are the ones who didn't make it back.
If kerry is such a big hero why doesn't he disclose his military medical records? hummm?
If you want to proclaim yourself a hero like this he should expect a little scrutiny.

Mostly though what the vietnam veterans have a problem with is Kerry's lying before congress denouncing the war. His actions there were treasonable as was his colaboration with north vietnamesse during his organizing anti war demonstrations.
Kerry should be indited not nominated.

By the way the nationguard did not let any " pussies" fly F104's
Looks to me like he flew a couple of times, and he got skeered.
By not showing up for his physical, he grounded himself. He never flew a plane after that.

I grew up during Vietnam. What Kerry did took guts. And there were atrocities being committed by American troops all over the place, sometimes against their own officers. Anyone who says "veterans are mad at him" doesn't even understand the Vietnam war. They were just as divided as everyone else was. Poor draftees hated the fu*king war, their officers and flag-waving war freaks. I'm not getting that out of a history book, either.

Vietnam is what you get when you take an uninformed, divided nation into war. Now we get to live it again.
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Old 07-31-2004, 10:24 PM
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Re: Re: Re: What constitutes a "tour of duty"

Quote:
Originally posted by axlechassis
Actually I wasn't directly attacking Kerry war record. Mainly seeking clarification as what certain terminology means.

But since you mention it Kerry leaves himself wide open to attack on this by making a big deal out of his vietnam experience and self proclaimed war hero status. The only heroes' in war are the ones who didn't make it back.
If kerry is such a big hero why doesn't he disclose his military medical records? hummm?
If you want to proclaim yourself a hero like this he should expect a little scrutiny.

Mostly though what the vietnam veterans have a problem with is Kerry's lying before congress denouncing the war. His actions there were treasonable as was his colaboration with north vietnamesse during his organizing anti war demonstrations.
Kerry should be indited not nominated.

By the way the nationguard did not let any " pussies" fly F104's
SELF-PROCLAIMED? Spoken like a guy that hasn't been paying attention. I am the self-proclaimed King of Siam, but I don't have a Silver Star to prove it.
One more small fact, Kerry has never told the story of saving Jim Rassmusson's (sp?) life. It was his shipmates that came forward before the Iowa primary, unsolicited, that told the story.,
Not to challenge your patriotism (or MANHOOD) but how many medals do you have, Axle? Did you ever serve OUR country? Have you ever been shot at in a foreign country with whom we were at war?
The national guard during the Vietnam war was the easy way out, and I was there to see it too, so I don't need no book to rewrite history for me.
I believe Kerry's shipmates, who were there, over some slime bag Republican smear merchant any day.
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Old 07-31-2004, 11:32 PM
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DEM'S MARINE MISFIRE

By STEFAN C. FRIEDMAN


July 31, 2004 -- SCRANTON, Pa. — John Kerry's heavily hyped cross-country bus tour stumbled out of the blocks yesterday, as a group of Marines publicly dissed the Vietnam War hero in the middle of a crowded restaurant.

Kerry was treating running mate Sen. John Edwards and his wife, Elizabeth, to a Wendy's lunch in Newburgh, N.Y., for their 27th wedding anniversary — an Edwards family tradition — when the candidate approached four Marines and asked them questions.

The Marines — two in uniform and two off-duty — were polite but curt while chatting with Kerry, answering most of his questions with a "yes, sir" or "no, sir."

But they turned downright nasty after the Massachusetts senator thanked them "for their service" and left.

"He imposed on us and I disagree with him coming over here shaking our hands," one Marine said, adding, "I'm 100 percent against [him]."

A sergeant with 10 years of service under his belt said, "I speak for all of us. We think that we are doing the right thing in Iraq," before saying he is to be deployed there in a few weeks and is "eager" to go and serve.

The Marines — all of whom serve at nearby Stewart Air Force Base — wouldn't give their names.

It wasn't an auspicious start to the senators' "Believe in America" bus tour — a 22-state, 43-city tour that will cover roughly 3,500 miles over 15 days in an effort to carry some of their momentum out of the Democratic convention.

But the rest of Day One went smoothly, as massive crowds — including what Kerry said were up to 20,000 in Harrisburg, Pa., — greeted him, Edwards, their families and Ben Affleck at the tour-kickoff event in Boston and at two stops in the Keystone state.

"Ninety-seven days [left in the campaign]; let's make it happen," Kerry told hundreds of bleary-eyed but upbeat supporters who showed up at a 7:30 a.m. rally on the shores of Boston Harbor — less than nine hours after Kerry finished his acceptance speech.

Kerry also employed Paul Revere's famed midnight run and imagery of Bunker Hill to bash President Bush over U.S. intelligence failures.

"These are the places where people dared to stand up and put their lives on the line — to take a risk — for something they believed in very deeply," Kerry said of the Boston neighborhood where he was speaking.

"One if by land, two if by sea, and the message was right. Come to think of it, they had better intelligence than we do today about what's going on," Kerry continued, drawing the loudest applause of the event.

In Harrisburg, Kerry noted that there was more bad news coming out of the financial markets yesterday, with oil prices reaching new highs and economic growth limping along at three percent.
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  #11  
Old 08-01-2004, 12:06 AM
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New Kerry Voters

Is that article fake or what? "Unidentified" Marines. Printed in "The New York Post", the biggest lyin tabloid around. You got any Enquirer articles? I got one from this months "Stars and Stripes"

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=&article=22267&archive=true


Morale in Iraq ranges from low to gung-ho


By Charlie Coon, Stars and Stripes
European edition, Wednesday, July 7, 2004



BAGHDAD — As Iraq inches toward self-sufficiency, the morale of U.S. troops trying to help the Iraqi people ranges from disillusioned to upbeat.

In many places, the emotional and physical rebuilding of Iraq is well under way and troops feel appreciated. But almost daily, far from the ribbon-cuttings and candy giveaways, an improvised bomb or missile kills another American servicemember.

In a recent interview on the Pentagon Channel, Army Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy operations director for Multinational Forces Iraq, said that the troops’ morale was high because they were focused on their mission and seeing positive results.

That does not appear to always be the case, according to random conversations with scores of servicemembers for this story at various locations in Iraq and Kuwait and feedback from troops over the past six weeks.

Some members of the 1st Armored Division recently said that, except for the toppling of Saddam Hussein, the U.S.-led invasion and occupation have been a waste of time, especially after their one-year tour was suddenly extended in April by three months.

Others believe positive things are still getting done, and that sense of accomplishment lifts their spirits.

“Morale was low, really low,” Sgt. Eric Wilkinson of Corpus Christi, Texas, and 1st Battalion, 6th Infantry Regiment, said as he waited at Baghdad International Airport for a flight home. “And then we got extended and [morale] was nothing.

“The extension, from our point of view, was not needed.”

“There’s no reason for us to be here, just getting killed, when the entire Iraqi nation doesn’t want us here,” said Spc. Edward Wisdom of Amoret, Mo. “Why are we helping them?”

For some servicemembers, keeping morale up is a result of keeping in mind how their job fits into the overall mission.

Petty Officer 2nd Class David King, for example, analyzes information that troops use to keep track of the enemy and its tactics.

“Being here to protect my fellow soldiers as they do their patrols, and as they protect the gates while I do my job, helps my morale,” said King, of the Norfolk, Va.-based 2nd Fleet. “And I think they enjoy knowing that somebody like me is sitting behind the gates, doing my job to help them.”

Morale comes from within, according to Spc. Matt Kellum of the 141st Signal Battalion, which was attached to the 1st AD. As he waited in Kuwait for his flight home, Kellum said he’d been deployed for 15 months and tried to make the best of it.

“The media only shows all the bad things happening,” Kellum said. “You don’t see the good things like schools being built. People aren’t really going to see the good we’re doing here for years down the road.”

Staff Sgt. Travis Muth of 1st Battalion, 160th Infantry Regiment, California Army National Guard, has a relatively cushy job and pretty good morale. He stands guard by a gate inside Baghdad’s Green Zone, an area that is already secured.

Still, he has to be on guard, and it’s hot outside and he misses his family.

“Everybody can nit-pick at their job,” said Muth, of Riverside, Calif.

“When important people come in here, they want to feel safe. We don’t want them to feel threatened.”

When told last week that some soldiers had doubts about their mission — “No matter how worthless the cause, we gave it all we had,” said one — Kimmitt blamed the commanders who let their troops become unfocused.

“When you’ve got leaders out there who aren’t doing their jobs, the soldiers are going to say, ‘I don’t know why I’m here,’” Kimmitt said.

“You’ve got to tell a soldier why he is here. Sometimes you’ve got to take them down to a car-bomb site and let them walk around, as I have done with my soldiers, to understand why they’re here.”

But he added that having good morale and being happy aren’t the same things.

“Do we have a right to be happy? No,” Kimmitt said. “It gets real hot around here. There are people shooting at you.

“In my case, there are people who will give $15 million if somebody cuts off my head and gives it to them. Does that make me happy? No. Do I have high morale? Yes.

“They [soldiers] are 19 years old,” Kimmitt said. “They’d rather be back home bird-dogging chicks and fixing their car but they’re not.

“They’re in a country that’s going through a hell of a transition and they are here to do what they’ve got to do to help.

“And they’re putting their lives on the line to do it and that’s not fun and that’s not easy.”

According to the Department of Defense, 858 servicemembers have died since March 2003 and the start of what the military calls Operation Iraqi Freedom. On June 28, an interim Iraqi government took control of the country’s ministries, such as agriculture, electric and health.

Iraq plans to hold free elections in early 2005. It is unknown how long U.S. troops will remain in the country, but military leaders have said it will be as long as it takes for Iraqi security forces to become able to defend themselves and the Iraqi people.

In October, a Stars and Stripes survey of 2,000 troops in Iraq showed 34 percent of the troops rated their personal morale as “low” or “very low” while 27 percent said it was “high” or “very high.”

Since then, many of the places where the troops sleep and work have been outfitted with air conditioning. There are more cafeterias serving better food and more creature comforts such as Internet cafes, fitness centers and movie theaters.

Those niceties only soften the unpleasantness of being away from home. Kimmitt said troops need four other things in order to have good morale — an understanding of their mission, trust in their leaders, tools to do their jobs, and the support of people back home.

“It’s not,” he said, “about whether they like the chow.”

But for many, there is no substitute for home cooking.

“We’ve got decent food and a good place to sleep,” said Pfc. Billy Cook of Huntington, W.Va., and the 141st Signal Battalion. “But being away from the wife and kids, it would make paradise not so great.

“That’s the hardest part for me, but it’s also what keeps me going — having somebody counting on me keeps me trying.”
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Old 08-01-2004, 12:07 AM
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Can't wait to see what those Marines have to say AFTER they've done their tour of Iraq.
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Old 08-01-2004, 12:12 AM
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I love this quote from the article:

“You’ve got to tell a soldier why he is here. Sometimes you’ve got to take them down to a car-bomb site and let them walk around, as I have done with my soldiers, to understand why they’re here.”

I am sure the soldier understands exactly why he is there after that. "Yes sir! Morale boosted sir!" "When do I get blown up sir?"
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Old 08-01-2004, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KirkVining
I love this quote from the article:

“You’ve got to tell a soldier why he is here. Sometimes you’ve got to take them down to a car-bomb site and let them walk around, as I have done with my soldiers, to understand why they’re here.”

I am sure the soldier understands exactly why he is there after that. "Yes sir! Morale boosted sir!" "When do I get blown up sir?"
Perhaps if you hadn't deleted the images of the collapsing WTC from your consciousness you might also understand what the USA is fighting for.

And spare me the glib moronic idiotic liberal rhetoric about how: "iraq has no connection with alqueda", which is proven baloney. You can put that baloney where the sun dont shine.
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Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge (1872 - 1933)
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Old 08-01-2004, 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by axlechassis
Perhaps if you hadn't deleted the images of the collapsing WTC from your consciousness you might also understand what the USA is fighting for.

And spare me the glib moronic idiotic liberal rhetoric about how: "iraq has no connection with alqueda", which is proven baloney. You can put that baloney where the sun dont shine.
Hey Axle,
Don't they have any other channels beside Fox in your trailer park?

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