Married life
 

Ok, here is a topic to discuss...

Yesterday, I had my 4 year wedding anniversary. Things have been fairly good for us, and we've overcome some significant issues during the last 7 years (4 married). But, I wonder sometimes about the virtue of trying to make things work that seem contrary to the constitution of one or both of the participants.

So, those of you who are married: How's it going? What major issues have you faced/beaten/failed? Sex?

Divorced? why? sex? (ha ha)

I'm not a proponent of the 'let her win everytime' theory, and I generally feel as though there is a critical point at which cutting one's losses is prudent, though I have parents who've been married 40 years who probably would have cut their losses with my criteria... and they are happy.

How about you?
Kevin

The real trick is to be married to someone who will also let you win every time; then, you are always in a win-win situation.

It sure as h*ll works for me.

BTW- I'm a 10 year veteran and been to "husband school" one other time for 13 years.

Going on 25 years. Not always been easy. Came close to breaking up about 5 years ago. We gave it one more try, went to a counselor, and we're happier now than we've been in years.
I've heard, and since learned, the biggest challenge to a marriage is selfishness, with one or both of the partners. If you can both eventually find middle ground, agree to disagree in areas where you can't, it'll work. If not, it's going to be a tough road.

First, congratulations on making it to four years :)

The only time I tried, he and I made it to about two years :P Not to get too into the details, but in my case the problems we had had nothing to do with sex. However, one of the major symptoms was expressed in terms of the sex, or more properly the lack thereof. People who are angry at each other but who are too scared of conflict to resolve it through some sort of communication will certainly not be having sex. And in my experience, sex feeds love as much as love feeds sex; remove one, and the other weakens. So anyway, that was my experience.

In the end, for me, it came down to whether I felt I could have a fulfilling and meaningful life in the context of the relationship I was in. My answer was no, and that was an extremely difficult thing to accept. It was even harder carrying it out, but in my case, it has been worth it.

I'm hoping lots of long-term marrieds will pop in with their perspective on the ups and downs of marriage, how to make it work, and how to know when it's irrevocably not working. I for one would like to make #2 work better than #1 did!

(Car's doing great by the way; drove it to work this morning :) I'm having intermittent wacky vacuum stuff, which is the first thing on my DIY troubleshooting list.)

Thanks, and... Good! I did pick up an '85 300TD wagon FINALLY, and it is GREAT! much thanks to MikeMover for help locating it!

I suppose this is on my mind lately because I've had three different couples who are friends of mine go through separation/divorce in the past year. They seemed outwardly normal/healthy, but had differences that one or the other thought was irreconcilible privately. I'd rather thought that if a relationship is strong enough, it can survive most anything, but I'm begining to realize that this is only true if both people are on the same page in that respect. If one feels hopeless, no amount of work on the part of the other is going to make much of a difference.

It's going to take both to make it work. That's kinda what happened to my marriage. She was the eternally patient one, I was the self-centered one. If not for her, I'm not sure we would have made it at all. I just kept getting more and more into my own little world thru the years, for various reasons. Her and the kids got the scraps so to speak. It didn't seem so bad to me at the time, until I found I had just pretty much lost interest in her. Sex? Maybe once a month.(webbie has it right there)
But without going into it in any more detail, we caught it just before it went up in flames. I had to do some major re-adjustment to my attitudes, and she met me halfway.

Well, I'm getting married in February (my 2nd, her 1st).

I was married almost 10 years the first time, and like webbie stated, sex/intimacy, etc. go hand-in-hand with the bond that a marriage needs to stay healthy IMO. Fortunately, there were no kids in my case. We were intimate maybe 10 times in the final 5-6 years (with the last two years being nada). :eek:

I'm willing to try again because I've not been afraid to examine what I did wrong the first time around. I'm COMMITTED to not repeating mistakes. But, I'm realistic to know there will still be challenges....big challenges.

Can't wait!

Well, after 6 yrs(8/1/98) of marriage I would definetly say it has had its ups and downs. I am 31 and my wife is 30. We met when I was 20 and she was 19 (9/15/93 first date, yes I remember). We were both very inexperienced in the love department but we knew we loved each other. :p

We both were in college during these years in which I flunked out and she made deans list. :D We partied very hard and often fought hard too. I guess we just got so comfortable and used to each other we felt we had no other choice but to get married. I mean that was what everyone was expecting and heck it sounded like it was gonna be a good time ;) So we did!

After a fun honeymoon and 2 months in a rental we did all the exciting things newlyweds do. Bought out first house..... It was a 75 yr old rock house with a maple tree in the front yard and a red front door. So charming :rolleyes: We also bought a new Volvo, got a Springer Spaniel(Molly), Credit cards, You know Best Buy, Home Depot, Visa, Amex, Etc. The parties slow down and we start to grow up a little. Then the REAL fun begins! I wanna have a baby! :cool:

In 11/26/01 we have Lily Claire and she is wonderful. Take all that I have including MOM and just leave her with me. Naked, broke, I dont care. She is my everything and I love her more than a heart knows how. Children are great, THEY are not however the cure for bills, slowing sex life, your overall relationship with each other.

On 12/10/02 also bought ANOTHER new Volvo.. This time the wagon...

In 2/02 I made a mistake of gargantuan proportions.... Another woman... I had never gotten much attention in the past because I was always a skinny little kid with glasses that favored Waldo/Buddy Holly. As I got in my late twenties I had grown up some and changed my look a little, kinda grew into my own and suddenly other women start flirting with me. I was being noticed and since I never "got around" that much I was curious. I went out with the guys and drank more.. I did not come home until late. I had a wife and child at home that I kinda forgot about because I was having "fun" again. :(

To shorten this story some, I ended up getting busted. I got really stupid AND well really became an a**hole and just quit coming home. The wife threw me out on my a**. My job performance had suffered so from all of this "fun" that I was demoted out of management and back into sales. It did not stop... I eventually quit what was the highest paying job I ever had and even started dabbling in a few presription pain killers. The downhill shame spiral...

I knew I had to hit rock bottom and I guess that happened when the banks started calling wanting their money and I could not buy any more booze. The girl I was messin with did the best thing for me... GO HOME! She started getting a complex about the married man (thank god) issue and sent me home...

My wife thankfully took me back and my little girl smiled at me when I returned. My wife had cried her heart out and begged me the whole time I was gone. A lot of women would have said NO and washed their hands of it all. I know my wife really loves me and believes in the the commitment we made in 98'. I know now that I love her too. She has taken so much sh** from me and worked so hard with me to get back on OUR feet. It takes a lot of work to make a marriage. There are so many temptations and reasons to throw in the towel. I feel if you have a willing partner there is NO reason to divorce. I guess I feel it against the values and morals I want for my kids to have.

I opened my own Cingular store in Ashevillle, NC last year and we just moved to Augusta, Ga to open another one. We are making excellent progress and hope that my wife can quit work next year to stay at home with LC. Hey we may even have enough love left in us to make another one. Things are good. Real good. Good Luck! ;)

Wife and I have been through 12 years so far.

Our problem now is that we live more like roomates than lovers...the hectic schedules of a dual-career family and an overachieving daughter leave us too exhausted at the end of each day to fit any intimacy into our relationship.

Fortunately we recognize this and are taking steps to correct this.

I've read that with new marriages, the relationship problems revolve around money issues..with older ones, lack of intimacy...makes sense.

One thing I notice is that in our early years, I would concede in practically all of the conflicts we've had. As I've aged, my patience runs thin, and I'm less inclined to allow myself to tolerate situations that I used to endure as a young man. So we "lock horns" more often because I've started "digging in" rather than surrendering.

Relationships fail when one or both partners feel as if they've poured their heart and soul into the marriage, and the other partner takes him/her for granted. That feeling along can grate on one's sense of well-being, and just about any disagreement can result in an all-out battle! This is also an area where infidelity plays a role...when an unfulfilled partner seeks affection and comfort from somewhere else.

Raising a child is a thankless task at times, especially since it takes decades for children to understand the sacrifices needed to properly raise one and return the gratitude so dearly yearned for. A problem child with serious issues (debilitating disease, drug addict, criminal issues) can also strain a relationship beyond repair.

But as you may have deduced, these are all issues that stem from a lack of communication. Nobody can read minds, and keeping unhealthy thoughts snuffed deep within just breeds contempt, and years later, the final straw leaves the other partner wondering "what did I do?!!"

I know this sounds like a cry for an end to traditional marriages...it's not. I have never known happiness more than being blessed with a family to support, a child to raise, and a partner and friend to love.

But using the analogy of getting a new MB: Your marriage starts off fresh, you love that new-car smell, problems are solved under warranty.

As the car ages and the warranty lapses, issues arise that can drain the wallet, cause frustration, and well, the paint and finish just isn't what you remembered when you first laid eyes on her in the showroom.

But a successful MB ownership requires constant attention to problems, routine maintenance, some restoration of components, and a basic love for the vehicle, despite its age. If you treat a marriage in the same manner, it will probably work out just as well.

20 years March 2005. I have not figured out how to quote yet but I pretty much agree with what Joe and G said. I have pretty much been down the same path as Joe too. The intimacy is definitely not the same as it was 20 years ago (that's what they make the Lavitra and Viagra for:)). I could tell mine truly loved me when she leveled that Glock 9 mm at me :). We are both just about exactly alike too - Aries, frugal and hard headed as all get out. But on the same hand I like beer, she likes orange juice. I like drag racing and working on old cars and she like ball room dancing, etc.... In my opinion you have to let the other "do their thing" so to speak. I leave for weekends with the kids to go to the drag races and she likes to go spend the weekend with her family, etc...

Anyway, the thing that I remind myself is if I had had it to do over would I still have married this woman and the answer is yes:o.

MY wife and I have been together since December 17, 1982.

The first two years were the most trying, and for various reasons. The first was the lack of a "groove" of the two of us working together. We needed time to adapt to each other's lives and learn to make decisions together. Today, that's second nature. The other main stubling block early in our lives together was money. We had NONE. We rented a an apartment for $330 a month and had a net income of $550. That left $220 for EVERYTHING else. Needless to say, it was stressful.

After two years, the money stress did not lift (not for many years after that) but things smoothed out thanks to us beginning to grow together.

Marriage takes WORK. People bail out when things go a little wrong. It takes dedication and preserverence. It's worth it. I firmly believe that we have such a high divorce rate thanks to people growing lazy and selfish. People are also conditioned to look for "perfection" and it just ain't gonna happen. They want a quick fix and I meet very few people willing to put the hard work into making a successful marriage. Also, people just don't seem to understand compromise. Life is full of them, and you better get used to it. In fact, it can make your life better, no matter what "life-coaches" or your management guru might say. I have found that whenever I have given something up, I get 10X back in return.

Marriage is also, often, about putting someone ahead of yourself. The Boomers and the Me generation, and many young people, just don't get it. They know little of the satisfaction of giving without any expectations. It's one reason why we have the increasing rich:poor gap, and it's spread into our home lives.

Ask yourself this question: if my partner's life was in jeopardy, and the only way that he/she would live is for you to give your own life, would you? Don't answer here, or even aloud. Answer yourself HONESTLY. If both you and your spouse would answer yes, then you have the foundation for a successful marriage. Then all it takes is hard work, and EVERY minute of it is worth it.

I wouldn't change a thing. Not one moment. Not the tough times, as they make the good times sweeter.

lol !
Dude, you are a frickin GENIUS ! ( I love it =)


Seriously on my part, after a whopping 11 months of I am still as happy as I was 11 months ago...I assuming that this isnt a surprise.
I get kinda worried sometimes, divorce rate, I'm not getting any thinner/desireable to her (its all her cooking, I swear =), PT job and FT school keep me away from out apt. much more often than I'd like. I've pretty much nto sat on any of my 2 motorcycles (save to commute) since before the wedding planning- this bothers me a touch, but its comes to this
** we are more important **
more important than motorcycles, more important then MB's (she let me get one, and maybe another, she knows what I like... I try to keep this in mind and think of her every time I drive home. I feel better if I know I'm doing something for her. Occasional flowers or cards do wonders- she lets me know she appreciates this (which is good on her).

You may tell my that my 'consitution' dicates that I not find a partner for life, and biologically, I'd agree with you (what % of the animal kingdom chooses mates for life? What % of the animal kingdom lives for 70-80 years ?)

But I also know what separates me from the animal kingdom- I have a more developed brain that can predict things, take concious action, think of things other than mating and eating, and a brain that can do things to make her love me. Its easy to give up and say "not worth it", but I belive (and will continue to belive) that it IS worth it.

Keep the faith (common God/faith helps too...), keep the marraiges going guys, too many sad stories/pissed off kids out there- we dont need more.

-John

My wife and I are still newly weds.....33 years! Is that possible? I'm still learning, but here's a few thoughts.
1) For us DIVORCE IS NOT AN OPTION. ( Murder, maybe, but divorce, never) Individually we each have a very strong faith in God and His plan. No sermon here.
2) Popular culture expectations are impossible. The idea seemingly presented by our culture is one of never-ending-bliss. Reality is that all people are messed up, and will continue to disapoint. Therefore have reasonable expectations.
3) Always resolve conflict. Some people say to resolve it before going to sleep. Well, we've bent that a bit. we've had a few very silent days over our 33 years together, but eventually we always talk it out.
4) Realize you can't change anyone else. You can only change yourself.
5) Marriage is not 2 people each giving 50% as is often portrayed. It is 2 people each giving 100% to their mate.

G-Benz
 

Good analogy, except you missed 1 very important part.

If your MB falls apart and you just can't fix it, you can just take it to your local junk yard, they will be happy to take it off your hands for free.

If you Marriage falls apart and you just can't fix it, you have to give her half of everything and continue to make payments on her.

If I could do it all over again, I gladly just stick with my MB and get a new one every 5 years.

29 years.

The worst were the 5-10 year. Economic turmoil, new kids. The zing of early years of marriage was fading. The usual things that stress folks got us stressed, too. We're both pretty patient and so we just sort of reached for new methods of accomodation with each other. I guess we basicly respected each other even when we were not being likeable.

The best years of our marriage have been the most recent 15 years. Watching hair gray, skin loosen, faces wrinkle, etc was a vision of horror in my younger years but now its something we share. Her wrinkles and gray I helped put there, like a "Portrain of Dorian Grey", hers on my canvas and mine on hers. Both of our stories told in each other's faces.

There is no magic formula. What works for one couple will fail miserably with another. You just have to work it out as best you can, on your own, and live with the consequences of your actions. Not everything that happens has a fault or blame to assign. Often its just better to shrug your shoulders, give a hug, and move on.

In defense of people who's marriages have failed, I can easily understand how that happens. I know plenty of good people of both sexes who have failed in marriage. It happens and its terrible. Or it should be terrible. If it isn't then you had no dreams invested in it.

But its a big waste of time to dwell on the failure. Some of it is your fault, some of it is the fault of your Ex. None of us outsiders really give a $hit about your scorecard. Do your mourning about the failure. Assimilate it. Learn from it. Move on.

B

We've been married 28 yrs. but I have a hard time drawing causal connections between how we have behaved and marital success. We both love canoeing and have been tandem canoeing partners for 27 of thos 28 yrs so we have a hobby that unites us. We also have very different interests. She is an artist and I am a philosopher. We live those parts of our lives pretty much apart. When we married, she was 18 and I was 22. We had known each other since she was 11 and I was 15. I think MS may be right (if we can deduct the religious element). Commitment and expections of endurance are important to long term marriages. Both of our parents have been married for over 55 yrs. so we are deeply conditioned to expect a long term marriage even though neither of our parents are good models for long term relationships.
The scariest moments were when we decided to reproduce after 18 yrs of marriage. I was fearful that the addition of an unknown unpredictable factor could shatter the harmony we had created. It did introduce additional stresses but overall our relationship stayed about the same.

At the moment, the thought of having shared the great majority of my life with one other person is incredibly valuable. I can only imagine that thought getting more important as the years pass.

One odd part is that we are now almost completely different people than we were when we married. I was a Pentecostal minister when we married. I am now functionally an atheist. She was a compliant Pentecostal girl with no interest in intellectual life or a career of her own when we married. She is now an artist and a middle school teacher with a keen mind.

It's a good thing we found canoeing.

canoeing
 

I used to use canoeing as a test to see how I was communicating with a girl. It is truly impossible to navigate even the most mundane flatwater without an understanding between you and your partner. I also used to take court-involved youth on canoe trips as teambuilding experiences- blindfolds do wonders for verbal communication!

In my situation, my wife, who was just starting to come into her own as an independent woman, decided to revert to kid-mode shortly after we were married, taking many things for granted and becoming dependent on me to the point that I had to make every decision. We talked a lot about it, and she'd go to a counselor for one or two visits then quit. I modified my behaviors in a variety of ways to reinforce my confidence in her as a decision maker, etc... but the underlying issues, we've found, predate my entry into her life.
Part of the problem is.... she'd never even dated anyone prior to me. Now, I didn't rob the cradle, she was through two colleges by the time we'd met; just had never been into the dating scene. I found that impossible to believe (especially due to her extremely attractive appearance) at first, but then discovered that she was incredibly shy. The shyness hid a wonderfully dynamic person who has tons to contribute to the world, but who rarely thinks of herself in those terms. So, seeing the 'true person' inside, I felt confident that eventually she'd actualize and live the way she was inside... but, she instead decided that since I was competant at stuff, she needn't become competant at anything. All the time, I was supportive, selfless, and hopeful for future progress. But, we'd get into it from time to time for her unsuportiveness, selfishness, and hopelessness...
Last year, she went to stay with her mother for a couple of weeks to try to get her wits about her. I had supported the move, as I thought anything would be better than what was going on, but was dissapointed that she didn't step up and make the committment to stay and WORK on things. I flew up there and we talked and we agreed to have her come home and she'd do x, y, and z. Over a year later, and she's still making excuses for those things- but insists she loves me. She is actually going to a counselor though, and has been back more than twice this time- but her follow-through has been so bad so many times I have a hard time feeling very hopeful about it. I love her, but what I mean in saying that exceeds what evidence suggests she means when she says it.
I suppose all of the couples that have separated in my life recently have caused me to wonder about what happens when one person is willing to give that 100% of themself to the other, but the other person is not. It is much like what I expect parenting to be... but I don't think it is what a marriage is supposed to be.

There are a great many wonderful things that we share, but I think we're better roomates right now- I can't imagine my life without her, but I feel as though I am missing something (besides sex) that she might never choose to give. Dah.

Well, that venting was fun- in good news, I'm running my first 5k tomorrow, so I must go to sleep now.

cheers,
k

dj...,
dont give up man, no matter how it all ends, one way or the other, you will confidently be able to tell yourself "I did all I could"... Allow me to quote Rudyard Kipling, the end of "If"

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!


-John

Admirable sentiments, but the other side of the coin is that sometimes going your seperate ways is probably for the best. We all change as we age, sometime a great deal, and is it always the right thing to 'work at a relationship' when the participants have grown to be different people, people who probably wouldn't like each other much had they never met before?

If you are making someone unhappy long-term, or blocking their 'purpose in life' or preventing them fulfilling their dreams or otherwise suffocating them, then true, selfless love would recognise this and let the other person go, with a smile and a hope that they will be happy. I see a strong selfish element in the way partners often cling to each other - this narcissistic love is not really love at all, but need. Like business partners. This is where all the anger and jealously comes from in relationships, because people need each other more than they love each other.

Speaking personally, it's nice to be needed a little, but I'd rather be loved for myself, than what I can give in return - material or spiritual. Therein lies true happiness.

K:
Two weeks with her mother strikes me as a way to complicate the problem rather than solve it. If I were a marriage counselor I'd recommend a couple of semesters in a women's studies dept. I've not seen anything quite as effective as that in developing an assertive woman.

It's too bad: the most surefire way I know for a person to develop the ability to take care of herself is for that person to live on their own for a while. When you have no choice other than to take care of business, you learn to just do it (and then after you do it awhile by yourself, you become a control freak, and can never let anyone else do anything because they can't possibly do it properly :), but that's another story). But a separation is usually the death knell for a marriage -- not a good option for you.

I don't know; that's a tough one. It's difficult to get someone to change if they're comfortable behaving as they are. She'll have to become sufficiently uncomfortable as a result of her behavior before she has any reason to change. Have you both gone in for counseling together, or has it always been just her going?

We've been through the womens studies departments of two schools... She listens to Ani DiFranco.

Living on her own, where she would either sink or swim, is something she had to do early in her life, but not as a full fledged independent adult. I agree that would have been helpful, and was a big mistake to cut out of the formative early adulthood. It was something we discussed prior to getting married, and was a major concern of mine at that time. I was assured it was no problem.... I am not sure how to help facilitate the independent on-your-own time and still be together- probably not possible.

She's never stayed in counseling long enough for me to enter the sessions, though I would if asked. Actually I met her counselor last week, and she suggested maybe including me. we'll see if that happens.

I guess the thing that bugs me (which we've discussed in detail) is that if I had the hang-ups, motivation problems, etc., and it was impacting her to the degree that hers impact me, I believe that I would move the earth to make it better. She doesn't do this, so I've been dissapointed. It's not that I expect it, it's that the actively seeking a fix pathway is the only one consistent with the feelings she says she holds for me. So, when the action is absent, I wonder about what lies beneath... and if I'm being set up for eventual let down, regardless of my own efforts/desires/support/selflessness.

Day to day though, I'm a pretty happy guy! especially now that I've got my '85 300TD to play with!

Thanks for all the responses. I didn't intend this to be a thread about me!