Foiul all you want. Be my guest and post back any official casuality figures you can find.

In all honesty Kirk, I don't especially care what the casualty figures are. My concern is focused on the need to win. So long as the military is parsimonious with the lives of its soldiers and promiscuous with the enemy lives, I believe we're going to triumph.

I know of two boys from my town (Lafayette) who were KIA last week and I know some of their relatives. My own family consists of a few relatives who were wounded in combat in a variety of wars. My family tends to serve in the military. Every male member that I know of, and four female members, from my great-grandfather's service to the present has been in the armed forces. I know a fair amount about what we, as citizens, demand of our children and also the thankless way we occassionally treat them.

In my estimation folks who spend time worrying about pain and suffering and death have already surrendered their freedom to their fear.

This is probably not going to be one of those moments when we agree on something.

Bot

Come on, man, you totally miss my point. I am asking that our government give us some metrics so we can measure the success of our war efforts. It has nothing to do with any emotional arguments on death or dying. Why does the government not report Iraqi KIAs? Or civilian casualities? Or al-Queda casualities in Afganistan? And if we killed "3/4" of their leadership, what does he base this on? Four guys? Forty? We are being lied to. Bush states "we are making progress in Afganistan", while the British people are being told something completely different - that thier intelligence indicates a failure of the Iraqi government is inevitable and that civil war is the likely outcome, in other words, we are actually losing this war. In other words, Bush is lying. Why? The idea that one should believe something simply because Bush said it, is just more evidence that the right is slipping into Orwellianism and taking the rest of us with them. You unintenionally present yourself as evidence of that.

No, I understood your point perfectly. I just think it is perfectly wrong.

We don't agree on the fundamentals, meaning that the derivative beliefs are never going to seem intelligible to either of us.

B

So, you don't think that the government/prez should be accountable to the citizens? I think that's what KV is getting at... because shrub doesn't back any of his rhetoric with any "meat". I think KV just wants something from our prez that people on this forum, for the most part, do when they present a position... a little "proof"

Is that what I said?

The word "yes" comes to mind.

Only in your mind, which is why I wear the foil hat whenever you go on these binges.

Here, try reading this which I posted earlier. Take your time on the second sentence. Slowly now. Got it? Now continue reading.

Your saying I should believe the President because he has access to better intelligence. His track record shows, that he looks at the intelligence, and then cherrypicks and lies about what it says. The foil hat is on the wrong head. Given the catastrophe shaping up in Iraq, we should question everything he says.

Yes, but you also said the second quote which implies that you trust him.

Ok fine, but we want to some "meat" behing shrubs statements. We don't trust him and as KV is saying stuff is disappearing which only makes one wonder even more especially if one takes into account the record on "truth" from the prez

No, I don't say you should necessarily believe or disbelieve. You should be open, yet skeptical. Its easier to accept things at face value then to get all wound-up in conspircaies and stuff. In almost everything in life, things are simpler than they appear. Most often we burden ourselves with an assumption of complexity and then seek it out. If you look for complexity, you'll find it everytime.

The rest of your comment I ignore because it has the usual load of burdensome fertilizer which I just find too tiresome to shovel. Rarely have I seen such liberal use of denigrating, disparaging adjectives as I have whenever you get all heated-up over Georgie-Boy.

Its like one of those fruit mold things made with jello. There's an occasional sweet nugget of fruit, but mostly its just matrix.

Bot.

Read again. It implies I trust Bush more than I trust Kirk.

Okay here are the scales of believability.

In one tray we put Bushie-boy and his lumpy mixture of fact/intelligence/politics/truth/conjecture/estimation. In the other we put Kirk with his mixture of fact/intelligence/politics/truth/conjecture/estimation. Now remove Bush from his tray and remove Kirk from his tray and leave their lumpy stuff behind. Which one weighs more?

Bot

:D :D :D that's funny but at this point i'd be more up to trusting kv then the shrub&the gang...it still seems to me you're too trusting of them... i am ok with that though.... this is America after all... :)

Trust, but verify.
-Ronald Reagan