First overtly political thread from the left. Is hiring Illegal Aliens Treason?

[KirkVining]

Bush wants to "legitimize" illegals that are here. Wouldn't the proper way to legimatize them be to annex Mexico? We are creating majorities in California, Arizona and Texas that have no rights here and very little in there own country. Aren't we selling out our own principles? How can we bring democracy to Iraqis, yet deny it to millions who live here among us? Why is "legitimizing" these people only something we want to do in only an economic sense?

My position is this - it should be a Class A Felony for employers to hire these people. To hell with trying to arrest the illegals - they are committing no crime in doing what any man would do to feed a hungry family. Arresting these people is no different than arresting a starving man for stealing a loaf of bread. The real criminals are the scheming greedy capitalist traitors who would sell out their own country by turning it over to an invasion by an army that has invaded us without guns. Like most filthy scumbag traitors they do it so they can make a buck. They belong in prison. There is no greater indictment of why turning this country over to corporations is the thing we are all going to regret, because these crooks that hire aliens seek nothing less than making treason legal. They should be locked up. If this was the law, then the illegals would be forced to stay in Mexico to solve their own problems.

We tax these people, in fact in the case of Social Security taxes we confiscate their income, thereby denying the most basic, most founding principle of this country - no taxation without representation. Bush chooses to side with the corporate criminals who sell out the jobs of Americans so we can continue to be craven hypocrites and screw these people, deny them the vote and treat them as a slave class, while our leaders allow us to be invaded in an invasion where no battles are fought, but that in the end gives us the same result as if the Japanese had successfully invaded America. To me, Bush violates his oath to perserve and protect the United States by supporting this treason.

As far as them being here to do the jobs nobody wants - we said that in Texas years ago and got to find out the hard way that there are plenty of skilled tradesmen and professional people in Mexico. These people have decimated what was once a backbone of the middle class here - high paying construction and maintenance jobs like carpenters, electicians and plumbers are gone now. Your job could be next. Why do none dare to call it treason?

We should make a choice - either make them part of our democracy where they have the same rights as everyone else, or keep them out in the way guaranteed to accomplish it - by meteing out heavy penalities for hiring them. To do anything else makes us all guilty of selling out our most basic principles.

[G-Benz]

It's treason if you consider our country a democracy.

It's "enterprising" if you consider our country a capitalistic society...

[The Warden]

I think "treason" is an overly strong term to use, but I agree with your sentiments. That said, the law is the law...if people want to migrate here, more power to 'em...but they need to do so legally. IMHO active deportation of illegals is just as important...

[KirkVining]

Why are the laws against hiring them not being enforced? Could it be those in the know push this concept of arresting the illegals because they know its NOT going to work? Why are all the right wing talk show guys and talking heads on Fox, etc all talking about "illegal aliens", but never a peep about "illegal employers"?

[KirkVining]

Originally Posted by G-Benz

It's treason if you consider our country a democracy.

It's "enterprising" if you consider our country a capitalistic society...

The US Constitution does not establish a capitalist society, it establishes a representive democracy, in fact the Constitution would work just as well under a variety of economic systems. Shouldn't our first loyality be to the Constitution, which commands our government to protect us from all enemies, foreign and domestic and embodies the principles on which the country was founded such as no taxation without representation? I am sure Sam Adams did not shout "Liberty and Cheap Labor For All !" as he threw the tea in Boston Harbor.

[California Beach]

Originally Posted by KirkVining

The US Constitution does not establish a capitalist society, it establishes a representive democracy, in fact the Constitution would work just as well under a variety of economic systems. Shouldn't our first loyality be to the Constitution, which commands our government to protect us from all enemies, foreign and domestic and embodies the principles on which the country was founded such as no taxation without representation? I am sure Sam Adams did not shout "Liberty and Cheap Labor For All !" as he threw the tea in Boston Harbor.

Cheap Labor?

I don't see that anymore. Illegals are getting top dollar these days and they want all cash which means Uncle Sam doesn't get it's share.
They are stressing our systems and costing US tax payers more than the savings any business is saving. In the long run, the picture looks bleak.

Originally Posted by KirkVining

Why are the laws against hiring them not being enforced? Could it be those in the know push this concept of arresting the illegals because they know its NOT going to work? Why are all the right wing talk show guys and talking heads on Fox, etc all talking about "illegal aliens", but never a peep about "illegal employers"?

Laws against hiring illegals are not enforced because (1) they're difficult to enforce, and (2) there is pressure from employers not to enforce these laws. After all, if we didn't have illegals, our new construction would be far more expensive, as would produce at our grocery stores. It would probably have cost me twice as much to get my house painted a couple of years ago! So employers and consumers for the most part have no reason to complain and push for tighter enforcement, and neither do workers who would want those jobs because, well, most American citizens aren't after construction, landscaping, and agricultural jobs.

People like me get upset over H1-B visas and offshore labor outsourcing, but we'll hire a painting crew made up of non-English-speaking men to paint our houses and maintain our lawn -- one set of immigrants hurts us, and the other helps us.

Without getting into the politics of it, talking heads talk aboutillegal aliens and not illegal employers because it's the immigrants themselves who are most visible and least powerless in our society. There are also more prostitutes in jail on any given night than there are johns or pimps, I'd wager.

We also worry more about the immigrants in the last couple of years because of the national security issues involved -- the 9/11 terrorists were here illegally as well, either without visas or on expired or invalid student visas. So immigrants are an easy target.

[yal]

Also expensive to enforce. Rather spend the money on more tanks and star wars

[mikemover]

Originally Posted by The Warden

I think "treason" is an overly strong term to use, but I agree with your sentiments. That said, the law is the law...if people want to migrate here, more power to 'em...but they need to do so legally. IMHO active deportation of illegals is just as important...

Exactly what I was going to say.

I don't think it technically qualifies as "treason" per se, but it is ABSOLUTELY illegal.

Illegal aliens should be arrested and deported, no questions asked.

Employers hiring illegal aliens should be arrested, no questions asked.

Mike

Is allowing work permit Mexicans that do jobs that our unemployed is too good for to live and work in hazardous unsafe conditions moral or legal?

[KirkVining]

Originally Posted by California Beach

Cheap Labor?

I don't see that anymore. Illegals are getting top dollar these days and they want all cash which means Uncle Sam doesn't get it's share.
They are stressing our systems and costing US tax payers more than the savings any business is saving. In the long run, the picture looks bleak.

That may be what's happening in California, but its not happening in the rest of the country. For years here in Texas illegals were restricted to the cash economy, but then big Texas corporations started seeing how toothless the laws were against hiring them, and they started hiring them by the thousands. Next the national corporations figured it out, which is why now you can find them all the way up in northern Maine now.

Heck, here in Texas, if I need to ask for anything at Burger King other than "#4 Supersize" someone has to go get an interpretor. Its no different at Walmart. The end result is that a lot of the entry level jobs that used to go to your kids or the poor or women reentering the workforce are gone. I started getting real mad about this when I went to work for a food processing company and found out they had 22,000 illegals on their payroll. Let that number sink in. 22,000 friggin illegals on a multi-national NYSE listed corporation. That isn't free enterprise, thats treason, and until all of us on both sides left and right start getting really, really mad, we are all going to regret it.

Another company I worked for created a new white collar job for production scheduling, a job requiring at least a business BA. Who do you think got the job? A Mexican! As illegal as the guys on the assembly line! Heck man, people graduate from college in Mexico too, and this company, with an assembly line full of illegals they winked at down at HR, WTF - lets start using their college grads too. People's perception of this being a problem of more people flooding in to mow our lawns better wake up. I do IT contract work for big corporations all over the US and I see this everywhere I go.

[KirkVining]

Originally Posted by webwench

Laws against hiring illegals are not enforced because (1) they're difficult to enforce, and (2) there is pressure from employers not to enforce these laws. After all, if we didn't have illegals, our new construction would be far more expensive, as would produce at our grocery stores. It would probably have cost me twice as much to get my house painted a couple of years ago! So employers and consumers for the most part have no reason to complain and push for tighter enforcement, and neither do workers who would want those jobs because, well, most American citizens aren't after construction, landscaping, and agricultural jobs.

People like me get upset over H1-B visas and offshore labor outsourcing, but we'll hire a painting crew made up of non-English-speaking men to paint our houses and maintain our lawn -- one set of immigrants hurts us, and the other helps us.

Without getting into the politics of it, talking heads talk aboutillegal aliens and not illegal employers because it's the immigrants themselves who are most visible and least powerless in our society. There are also more prostitutes in jail on any given night than there are johns or pimps, I'd wager.

We also worry more about the immigrants in the last couple of years because of the national security issues involved -- the 9/11 terrorists were here illegally as well, either without visas or on expired or invalid student visas. So immigrants are an easy target.

Webwench, bankrobbery law is difficult to enforce and bankrobbers aren't too in favor of it either.

[GermanStar]

Anyone who resides in Arizona could tell you that there are clearly people in authority here who promote the existence of illegal aliens. They have developed a substantial culture in the Phoenix area and generally live there uncontested. Consider the furor cause by Prop 200.

Illegal immigration and bank robbery are very different in that one is a violent crime that inarguably causes more harm than good, and the other is nonviolent and provides some benefits to some people.

And no, I'm not arguing in favor of illegal immigration. I was merely answering the question you posed:

"Why are the laws against hiring them not being enforced? Could it be those in the know push this concept of arresting the illegals because they know its NOT going to work? Why are all the right wing talk show guys and talking heads on Fox, etc all talking about 'illegal aliens', but never a peep about 'illegal employers'?"

[KirkVining]

Originally Posted by GermanStar

Anyone who resides in Arizona could tell you that there are clearly people in authority here who promote the exploitation of illegal aliens. They have developed a substantial culture in the Phoenix area and generally live there uncontested. Consider the furor cause by Prop 200.

Looks like nothing in that to penalize employers. Am I right?