These threads on selfish/selfless acts has me thinking about a concept i learned in school a while back called psycological egoism. Basically it states that human beings are inherintly selfish and that we only do things that give us something back in some shape or form. Thoughts? I agree with it, even Mother Theresa(God bless her) could be considered selfish because all of the good she did for people helped her get into heaven. The main argument against it is the soldier who jumps on the grenade to save the rest of his troup, but i happen to think that is more of a conditioning factor than a thought out decision. Anyway, you guys seem to be an educated bunch(politics aside...heh) whats your thoughts?
Ryan

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Selfish? Yes. Even our concept of altruism is delusional, I think. For example, if Mother Teresa or I give something to somebody, we feel good about ourselves--we get a reward. Or God showers his blessings on the generous of spirit, if you prefer. I cannot imagine an entirely selfless act unless one is completely psychotic--that is perform an act devoid of feeling. For to give of ones' self and not care would be kind of weird, wouldn't it?

How's that for an extreme position?

It partly depends on how you define selfishness/unselfishness. For instance, if you define an unselfish person as a person who feels good from helping other people then there is no conflict. If you define unselfishness as a person who just does good for other people with no connection with their own good, the situation is different.
You could also rephrase the question to ask whether people can possibly be motivated by moral values independent of other interests they have. The obvious case here is soliders who are conditioned(?) or taught (?) to act out of duty, honor and patriotism rather than invididual self-interest.

Push the question far enough and you end up in metaphysical problems. Buddhists for instance, don't believe there really is a 'self' that can be benefitted so that 'selfishness' is acting out of illusionary beliefs and practices.

Another way of thinking about the question arises with Hobbes' political philosophy for most Anglo-American thinkers. If you follow the line of his thought, we only do unselfish things because the State forces us to do them because we are 'naturally' selfish.

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Evolutionists use a fancy hall of mirrors when talking about this stuff. The goal of an organism is to pass along its particular genome. This is why we protect progeny and siblings--they share lots of genes with us so we help preserve them to protect the fragments of the gene sequences that we hold in common. So to extend it further, we perform altruistic acts because of misappropriated behavior -- we have this inclination to help related people but apply it to unrelated people. Even that may help in that the unrelated people for whom you did service may be less inclined to do interfere with progeny of the helpful group. And thus we proceed from family to clan, to tribe, and nation. It builds to sacrifice in mechanized war.

Forget semantic games. However which way you define selflessness does not diminish any act of kindness. What's the point?

There's a different kind of reward a sadist gets from blowing up lizards than Mother Theresa gets when she's helping the poor. If pleasing the ego is what defines an act then hell, whatever goes doesn't it? Bring on Hannibal the Cannibal!

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Is the pleasure difference between a sadist and altruist different? I know the behavior is different, but how can we know the pleasure is different?

It's different from our perspective. Who knows what it is in other minds.

The masochist says beat me.
The sadist says no.

Who is being selfish?

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Should we encourage selfishness? Capitalism says yes. Everyone should pursue their own interest and the common good will occur via the invisible hand.

I think some amount of semantic discussion is necessary because otherwise we don't know what we're talking about.

Got to think about the pleasure difference. Must be somewhat of a different brain mechanism involved since there seem to be less sadists than non-sadists.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Having concern for oneself or exhibiting behavior which results in some sort of personal payback is not selfish. It is normal, healthy behavior. It becomes selfish when personal payback is your only interest, and the interests of others are essentially ignored or disregarded.

I agree - we have a duty to others of looking after ourselves, one reason being that we do not become a burden on others.

If we do not have free will, then we cannot be selfish, because we cannot behave any other way or choose alternatives. Alternatively, if we only ever can do things we want to do, then we are always selfish. Kerry, help me out here.

Anyone really interested in selfishness/altruism, please read 'The Selfish Gene'. This is orthodox genetics but written for the layman. Very enlightening.
You can predicted how 'selfish' an organism will be from it's relatedness - as relatedness decays from siblings, parent/offspring, through grandparents/grandchildren, cousins etc we expect 'altruism' to decay similarly.

I get heartily weary of those who use nature as any kind of guidance for their own behaviour, however - as if observing that lions eat antelope was some kind of justification for being a totally selfish prick.

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At least we have the illusion of free will. There is an apparent distinction between selfish and selfless acts. It may be differ between you and I, but we somehow manage to make the same distinction.

We could start with something like this:

An act, S, is a selfless act if, and only if,

1) Very few people, if asked, would do it.

2) The person doing it could be doing something else which could bring them more immediate and long term pleasure.

3) The person doing it is doing it by their own free will

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How about this: A selfless act is one where someone goes out of their way for someone else without ANY sort of gain being planned for or hoped for. IOW, if you know you get a warm fuzzy feeling from helping the old lady across the street, that is NOT a selfless act anymore than if someone paid you money to get the same old lady across the street.

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Sacrificing your life for another. I think that merits a selfless act in most anyone's book.

I think it is the initial feeling. If it is arduous to you in some manner, but you go through it anyway, it is selfless. Just because you feel good afterwards, does not make you want to perform that kind of task again. Its not that kind of feeling. It is a righteous feeling.

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Going out of your way to do something while foregoing some other pleasure is selfless. While you might get a warm fuzzy feeling out of helping an old lady across the street, you could have done something else which could have given you a warmer fuzzier feeling.

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You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows - Robert A. Zimmerman

We can be. God gave us all the ability to choose. You see God in people when they are not so selfish. I have a friend who used to help me out with my car all the time expecting nothing in return. I have seen God in him alot. Other people are not so gracious. It's up to you, it's a choice and there is no absolute or general answer. Everyone has the opportunity to change their ways.

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