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  #16  
Old 01-16-2005, 07:12 PM
webwench
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aklim
No, but playing the devil's advocate here, which is the better investment when you see a woman of childbearing age and a man?
Depends on the woman and the man.

Here's a case in point: I was on 24/7 call for my job for a couple of years. Not a big deal, I get the occasional phone call about something that is broken, and I have a laptop and high-speed connectivity to log in and deal with it. At the time this started my son was a toddler, and I was a divorced mother. I suppose you would look at the situation and say, I'm not likely to be a good employee in that situation.

Not long into that time period, we hire a guy whose role includes being on call sometimes on a rotating basis with me. We hire him, and shortly aftrewards he marries his fiancee and they start spawning. What do you know? He 'couldn't be on call' because it would interfere with his family life. He was often out because his (nonworking) wife was ill, or one of the kids was ill. He was always coming in late or leaving early for doctors' appointments, or contractors coming out to the house. You almost have to wonder what the stay-at-home wife's 'job' was.

Who was the better hire? Who was more reliable? Who was available off hours?

A couple years later, he was laid off, and I'm still there, so I guess that's my reward. If my boss had put me on some 'mommy track' because I'm female, already a parent, and could marry and start spawning again any day now, well, I'd have been on to a better job opportunity quickly, and I and my new employer would have been glad for it. *shrug*

Yes, it's one instance, and not a sociological study. All I'm saying is, you cannot judge a book by the cover, at least not if you want to have the best people work for you. You take people as individuals, and judge them based on their own behavior and qualities, otherwise you're just running a good old boys' network and hiring people who are just like you, because that's what you're comfortable with.

Allow me a small rant: It's funny; we laud dedicated fathers who make time for their families. We slap a guy on the back because he leaves work early a day or two a week to coach the kids' soccer team. We make a big deal out of single dads, how hard it must be for them 'doing it all on their own'. I listened to male middle-managers pat themselves on the back strangely often for working flex time to accomodate their families in speeches to their groups and divisions. But we have this thing in the workplace against mothers who do the same thing, or who we think might attempt to do the same thing, and I know I wouldn't dream of taking some of the liberties or advertising my parental status the way some of my male coworkers have in the past. The same actions from me would be perceived differently, and I expend a fair amount of energy avoiding any hint that my parental status or marital status may affect my job performance. It's a double standard, and I get tired of it on a personal level.

Last edited by webwench; 01-16-2005 at 07:54 PM.
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  #17  
Old 01-16-2005, 07:21 PM
webwench
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Originally Posted by MS Fowler
Web Wench,
Which group would that be? Mercedes-owning intelligent women who are pilots... you are unique.
Heh I appreciate the compliments. On the other hand, I know women who are smarter than me, who are more experienced pilots than me, who can ride bigger motorcycles than I can in circles around me, who own nicer cars or have bigger salaries or houses, or who have expertises and talents far beyond anything I have. I am unique... just like everyone else.

And my life insurance precludes skydiving, so I never have! But I wanted to!
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  #18  
Old 01-16-2005, 07:22 PM
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There's unstated grief from my supervisor when I take my turn with time-off for sick kids or school activities. I think that's two-fold. One is that time-off affects everybody's workload who must take-up slack. The other is that I think people believe the mom should take time off, not the dad. This is especially true when the kids are very young. Folks tend to think that dad is babysitting the kid but that mom is the 'real' caregiver.

I have a good friend, a single parent man, who had to explain tampons to his daughter. Eeeek! Thank goodness I had a wife for that chore. I have gone to the store for, 'supplies' and am pleased that I know who gets what.

Once I was a chaperone for an overnight event of preteens and young teens. I had to make 3-4 trips one night, LATE!, to get supplies for girls who hadn't planned things with much forethought. The night clerk, was not a woman who found humor in my visits. I have no idea what she thought, but it wasn't pretty.

B
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  #19  
Old 01-16-2005, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dolebludger
webwench:

The last time I was single I was 40. Sure, I dated a few 23 year olds and a few nitwits of various ages, and out of disgust for these types developed a couple of policies. First was the policy against my dating "20 somethings." I called it my "no trainee" policy. Second was my "no incompetents" policy. Women who did not have some sort of career going for them and who did not live in a presentable place and drive presentable cars were out! She didn't have to be a CEO or live in a mansion or drive a Ferrari or anything like that, but just presentable. IMO, guys who do what your initial post says they are doing are getting into a real "high maintanence" situation, and I don't think they will like it in the long run.

Thanks,
Richard
I'm completely with you and have similar rules. You know, if a man reaches my age and doesn't have some sort of a career and a home of his own, I have a hard time taking him seriously or imagining him to be a responsible person. It's not about his income or his car or the size of his house, it's about demonstrated responsibility, stability, sanity, and showing some sort of capacity to be a partner.
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  #20  
Old 01-16-2005, 07:34 PM
webwench
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Originally Posted by Botnst
...I think people believe the mom should take time off, not the dad. This is especially true when the kids are very young. Folks tend to think that dad is babysitting the kid but that mom is the 'real' caregiver.
I can see that. And it's another example of how being judged based on your group membership isn't a good thing.

And the tampon stories were pretty funny
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  #21  
Old 01-16-2005, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webwench
I can see that. And it's another example of how being judged based on your group membership isn't a good thing.

And the tampon stories were pretty funny
....ooooh, no, a tampon thread?
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  #22  
Old 01-16-2005, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suginami
....ooooh, no, a tampon thread?
Left it hanging, did you?
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  #23  
Old 01-16-2005, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
Left it hanging, did you?
this thread is plummeting....

so webwench, what say you? are men looking for mommy? this is a freudian dream!
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  #24  
Old 01-16-2005, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azimuth
this thread is plummeting....

so webwench, what say you? are men looking for mommy? this is a freudian dream!
Freudian slip, when you say one thing but mean your Mother.
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  #25  
Old 01-16-2005, 07:53 PM
webwench
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Originally Posted by azimuth
this thread is plummeting....

so webwench, what say you? are men looking for mommy? this is a freudian dream!
Hee hee

I think humans are generally too complex and individual to be able to say, half the population is looking for 'x', or these kinds of people only want 'y'. I've encountered men who seem to be looking for a mommy, and I've seen men who are looking for the exact opposite of mommy, and acting the least bit mommylike sends them running for the hills. And I've encountered several who I have no idea what the hell they're looking for If you could know everything about a person just by looking at them, the world would be a very boring and predictable place.
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  #26  
Old 01-16-2005, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webwench
Hee hee

I think humans are generally too complex and individual to be able to say, half the population is looking for 'x', or these kinds of people only want 'y'. I've encountered men who seem to be looking for a mommy, and I've seen men who are looking for the exact opposite of mommy, and acting the least bit mommylike sends them running for the hills. And I've encountered several who I have no idea what the hell they're looking for If you could know everything about a person just by looking at them, the world would be a very boring and predictable place.
I wonder whether the whole 'mommy'/'looking for mommy' thing is desirable or not? Perhaps that sort of dependancy leads to long, stable, happy relationships. It's so far out of my personal range of experience, I just wonder what others think...
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  #27  
Old 01-16-2005, 08:03 PM
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It must have had a very strong natural selection impetus. Set aside the free-will thing.

If a man were to look for a woman to be the mother of his children, what model should he use? Well, the man survived to adulthood, therefore he knows one model that worked for him. He might also have aunties and sisters, etc. So he has an array of models to choose from. Chances are the models with which he is most familiar are kin and/or have clan/kinship ties. So these will be his proper definition of successful women.

etc.
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  #28  
Old 01-16-2005, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
Freudian slip, when you say one thing but mean your Mother.
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  #29  
Old 01-16-2005, 09:01 PM
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WebWench,
re: your "rant" regarding the double standard.
I think the reason men get "credit" for doing family things is that its still against type. Mothers are typically the "nuturer". I'm over 50, and very different from my father. he worked to earn the money to support the family. That was his contribution. Anything else wasn't expected and he didn't do it.
I determined to be a different kind of father to my 2 sons. I worked ( 50+) a week, but I also made time for them. I spent a few years coaching baseball, attending plays and concerts, and just spending time with them. I wasn't like my father; I made other, different mistakes. My sons will not be fathers like me. We all react to the situation we were in, and determine not to make the same mistakes; we make other ones.
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  #30  
Old 01-17-2005, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azimuth
i cannot speak for all, or even many, men. I will say that in my case, I did not marry my wife because she was smart and successful, even though she was. I did not marry her because i admired her accomplishments, i.e. a black belt in tae kwon do, even though i do (she can beat me up... ). i did not marry her because she is beautiful or sexy, even though she is. I married her because she was all these things, yet humble enough to know that the world did not revolve around her alone and for this i fell hopelessly, helplessly in love with her.

i'm still not sure why she married me. I know that i married "up". I vowed that from the day we were married to the day we part, at the end of days, I would work hard to deserve her. I can only hope that is enough.....
Damn, you are seriously "whipped"!

That post sounds like a Hallmark card! hahaha....

Seriously, it sounds like you're very happy. More power to ya'.

Mike
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