Couldn't you just see losing a certain percentage of that hard won stuff to all sorts of weak links in the chain? One thing she points out that is rarely discussed is the expense, in terms of energy use, of compressing and/or cooling the hydrogen to make it compact enough to carry around in a vehicle. That, plus the limited amount you could carry, makes your idea plausible -- maybe the only practical use for the stuff.

One of the big beefs against windmills on coastlines is their unsightliness of course, but they need to be close to be on the grid. Putting them far out to sea and then shipping the energy back as hydrogen is a good option, one I hadn't thought of.

One thing I never hear about, is the efficiency (or lack of it) of producing hydrogen and oxygen with electricity -- in terms of BTUs put in and gotten out. There is always some kind of loss in a transfer -- if it's very high in this case, oh man, another mark against it.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Thermodynamics is a *****, isn't it? Everything has a price, everything runs down and you can never break even. I don't think I have heard of a offshore windmill proposal that discussed energy transmission. On the Gulf coast we have lots of platforms fairly close in that could be used but talk about gawd-awful eternal eyesore! Also, transmission lines would have to be built through the marsh, which is already degrading due in no small degree to industrial equipment tearing channels through which high-salinity water may move into brackish and fresh marsh, killing that marsh and eroding it away.

Did anybody catch that dramatization of a new oil crisis? I think it was on FX, maybe? I just caught a portion of it. IMO, it was not terribly far-fetched, at least the part I saw.

There will be an IMAX movie coming out next year (I believe) about wetlands, including the Mississippi River estuary. I hope lots of people are able to see the movie, probably as close to being there (without maringouin) as you're likely to get.

Thanks for the IMAX tip. I'll look for that one. The FX one sounds interesting as well, perhaps I can catch it somehow.

I've looked at some thermodynamics text books and it's a humbling experience. If I was stuck on an island with a few of them, I might be able to make something out of it, but I'm afraid I might need a good college course or 12 to get that hang of THAT one...

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Thermodynamics is one of those walls hit by undergrads who think they're real smart. Then you hear a cackle like rattled dry bones in a crypt and get *****-slapped by J. Willard Gibbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josiah_Gibbs), who sends you crying home to mommy.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

For some reason, every time i see this thread title i think it's about real estate sales people....

__________________
...Tracy

'00 ML320 "Casper"
'92 400E "Stella"

Nice to see the ol' sense of humor expressing itself, Tracy!

My PT cleared me to to lift up to 20 lbs (and i've lost 7 lbs, probably muscle). Just hearing her okay is like the euphoric stuff i used to take....

__________________
...Tracy

'00 ML320 "Casper"
'92 400E "Stella"

So by the time you get one built there in Lafayette you should be good.

__________________
-Marty

1986 300E 220,000 miles+ transmission impossible
(Now waiting under a bridge in order to become one)

Reading your M103 duty cycle:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831799-post13.html
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831807-post14.html

At the rate we're sinking, maybe so.

By the way, any of you guys following naturally occuring methane hydrate as a fuel source? From what I understand, at high pressure and low temp (sea floor) methane bonds with water into a dense, colloidal substance called methane hydrate. The problem is in economically mining it.

It is also suspected as a cause of ship disappearnces in...wait for it...the Bermuda Triangle! Yep folks, the theory being that it goes into the gas phase easily and rises to the surface, lowering the density of seawater such that any vessel that happens to be in the neighborhood would sink.

http://www.llnl.gov/str/Durham.html

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Had heard that theory on pulp science TV... Supposed to affect aircraft as well for different reasons of course... maybe lack of OČ for the engine in the cloud.

It seems to me like there are probably a lot of good unexploited places left to get energy from... but I always remember the advice from a web site I visited a while back...
(aprox.) 'before designing an alternative energy system for your home you should first take steps to reduce your energy consumption where ever possible. It is always cheaper to buy energy efficient appliances, light bulbs,... and produce and store less energy to operate them than it is to produce and store more energy and use it inefficiantly due to the high initial and mantainance costs associated with alternitave energy generation'
It seems to me that this is more a fundamental principal of stewardship than we tend to realize, comming from the the wide open history of exploitation that we do.

__________________
-Marty

1986 300E 220,000 miles+ transmission impossible
(Now waiting under a bridge in order to become one)

Reading your M103 duty cycle:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831799-post13.html
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831807-post14.html

Now you've got me doing it. Get out of my mind, hijacker!

....payback

__________________
...Tracy

'00 ML320 "Casper"
'92 400E "Stella"

Hate to be a pooper (unlike me) but I'm nervous about this one for some reason. It's got a Pandora's box feel to it. Interesting web site though. And like you said, getting at it for less than $$ per Btu might be the factor that'll stop it anyway.

To reiterate and expand, solar heat collection is the avenue I like. Unlike windmills, it's not an eyesore; works best in places that are not in high demand for other uses; and it just channels heat that was gonna come to the planet anyway and gets some work out of it before it escapes as free, unchained heat (Let my heat go!).

My favorite breakthrough guy is Bill Gross. He's developing devices to magnify the amount of light that strike a PV cell, making them more cost effective and also has a device in development that would put around 8 small parabolic mirrors into a 4x8 panel, each one running its own Stirling engine.

http://solar-business.blogspot.com/2005/02/energy-innovationss-sunflower.html

It's the only idea I've run across for a heat collector that could fit onto a roof (other than water heaters, of course) and be as user friendly as PV panels. Ideally, heat collectors are much more efficient than PVs, but, it's not happening in a big way yet. The whole Stirling engine thing is a puzzle. I can still hardly believe the principle actually works. I read somewhere that Sweden has a sub that uses a Stirling engine, a big advantage being that they are really quiet.

What I don't get is why we don't have them using waste heat in autos for electricity (would give a small efficiency boost) and perhaps air conditioning.

Damn, I wish I hadn't dropped out of engineering school.

__________________
1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

It is kinda bizarre, some of what we use energy for. My nephews view it as a birthright to spend hours a day running their repetitive video games on a huge TV (radiation, anyone?) -- at least they're not fat, thank God -- speaking of which, we've got an epidemic, so they say, of obese youngsters, to say nothing of obese oldsters. You wonder how much of that would be solved if kids (these days!) played tag and tetherball (anyone else do that as a kid? I loved it) with the same devotion as they play video games.

I lived off and on at a Hot Springs resort north of Napa in the early 90s. It was a happening concern, had a resident staff of around 150 -- I worked maintenance and restaurant -- I lived about a mile away from the main center, the last half mile up a steep hill. I walked it. My neighbors all drove and thought I was nuts, and I returned the sentiment (privately). My truck would barely make it up the hill anyway. Good God, I loved it. I only drove once or twice a week, and enjoyed it much more. Got in some o' the best shape of my life. If the place wasn't so damned weird in 7 ways out of 10, I'd be there yet.

My point being, I know I would be happier if I could drive way less and walk way more, and I think our much ballyhooed national obesity crisis would be at least partially remedied if we could somehow structure our lives to pull that one off. Butttt....., oh man, it won't be easy.

__________________
1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Baby-boomers grew-up in neighborhhods dense with children in a melieu of ages. Since my Father was in the Navy and then grad school, we lived in a mixed society before the Civil Rights laws were enacted (legally in the military and financially in grad school). We'd run in packs of kids from 6-10 or 11 yrs old. Parents were shared like generic gas stations. You'd go from house to house scrounging food like a biblical pestilence and then get bootedout. Few people had A/C and TV's were not real common and always B&W. As a consequence, there was little reason to be inside and if you stuck around too long your parents ran you out.

Now-a-days my kids grew-up with a much smaller number of neighborhood children. Due to forced integration, the kids mix in public school quite a bit. But they rarely mix socially with other races/ethnicities. Neighborhoods are somewhat more mixed racially, but there are so few kids (compared to my childhood) that they don't form the seething cohorts of activity. Instead, they tend to play in twos or threes or sit alone watching the tube. This tends to reinforce their image of what normilty is, it doe not give them much spectrum. Parents organize events for play: Soccer, dance, piano, etc. These are not activities sprung from the child's imagination, they are gifts from the parents that answer the adult need for schedules and organization and responsible behavior.

It's so different.

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