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  #16  
Old 10-30-2005, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MedMech
Why do people try to justify Muslim behavior because of some perverse Catholics. I wonder what sins the godless commit on a daily basis.
If you don't have a god you can't sin.

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  #17  
Old 10-30-2005, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuan
If you don't have a god you can't sin.
True, but sinning can be loads of fun if you espouse deism.....

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/k/khlysty.html
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  #18  
Old 10-30-2005, 09:22 PM
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Sin. In several languages, that means, "without." Is sin an anglo-saxon homophon of the latin cognate?

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  #19  
Old 10-30-2005, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
Sin. In several languages, that means, "without." Is sin an anglo-saxon homophon of the latin cognate?

B
The English word sin derives from Old English synn. The same root appears in several other Germanic languages, e.g. Old Norse synd, or German Sünde. The word may derive, ultimately, from *es-, one of the Indo-European roots that meant "to be," and is a present participle, "being." Latin, also has an old present participle of esse in the word sons, sont-, which came to mean "guilty" in Latin. The root meaning would appear to be, "it is true;" that is, "the charge has been proven." The Greek word hamartia is often translated as sin in the New Testament; it means "to miss the mark" or "to miss the target".


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  #20  
Old 10-30-2005, 09:41 PM
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Wait, there's more:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

"Sin" has several different meanings, and can refer to:


A female character from John Milton's Paradise Lost. She is the daughter of Satan and mother of Death.
A Sumerian god. See Sin (mythology).
The sky god and chief deity of the Haida pantheon. See Sin (Haida).
An abbreviation of sine in mathematics.
The twenty-first letter of many Semitic alphabets. See Shin
A Chinese family name 單.
Jaime Cardinal Sin
The Social Insurance Number for Canadians.
Sin, the primary monster in the game Final Fantasy X.
The title of a computer game. See Sin (computer game).
A town in Aargau. See Sin, Switzerland
A town in Egypt, named in the Bible (Ezek. 30:15). See Pelusium
A single by Nine Inch Nails. See Sin (Nine Inch Nails song).
Another name for the Minaean god Wadd.
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  #21  
Old 10-30-2005, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peragro
The English word sin derives from Old English synn. The same root appears in several other Germanic languages, e.g. Old Norse synd, or German Sünde. The word may derive, ultimately, from *es-, one of the Indo-European roots that meant "to be," and is a present participle, "being." Latin, also has an old present participle of esse in the word sons, sont-, which came to mean "guilty" in Latin. The root meaning would appear to be, "it is true;" that is, "the charge has been proven." The Greek word hamartia is often translated as sin in the New Testament; it means "to miss the mark" or "to miss the target".


-wiki
Whoa. Traced through one path it means a state of being and from another fork, guilty and yet a third fork, miss the mark. But the base word meant, "true." How in the devil (?), did a word begin as, "true" and evolve into three different concepts? This is evolution in language. Language, being a function of culture, indicates wildly different cultural paths, doesn't it?

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  #22  
Old 10-30-2005, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peragro
The English word sin derives from Old English synn. The same root appears in several other Germanic languages, e.g. Old Norse synd, or German Sünde. The word may derive, ultimately, from *es-, one of the Indo-European roots that meant "to be," and is a present participle, "being." Latin, also has an old present participle of esse in the word sons, sont-, which came to mean "guilty" in Latin. The root meaning would appear to be, "it is true;" that is, "the charge has been proven." The Greek word hamartia is often translated as sin in the New Testament; it means "to miss the mark" or "to miss the target".


-wiki
I love it, to sin means to be! Augustine had no influence on that did he?
One likely merit of Islam over Christianity is the absence of a doctrine of original sin. I'll venture the far fetched opinion that it gives Islam a leg up in the current war of civilizations. Christians can easily let capitalism and its corruptions run their course because that is the 'nature' of the sinful world. Islam tries to civilize the world because it's not willing to paint everything outside the church with the brush of original sin.
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  #23  
Old 10-30-2005, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry edwards
I love it, to sin means to be! Augustine had no influence on that did he?
One likely merit of Islam over Christianity is the absence of a doctrine of original sin. I'll venture the far fetched opinion that it gives Islam a leg up in the current war of civilizations. Christians can easily let capitalism and its corruptions run their course because that is the 'nature' of the sinful world. Islam tries to civilize the world because it's not willing to paint everything outside the church with the brush of original sin.
Original sin? there is no such thing extant in humanity.

Kudos Sir, on your perception and erudition.

Everything you mentioned bears a face to current events.
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  #24  
Old 10-30-2005, 10:05 PM
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The myth of mythology
Reviewed by Karen Armstrong
Legends aren’t supposed to be history; they are an understanding of what it means to be human. We forget them at our peril

A SHORT HISTORY OF MYTH
(Canongate £12; offer £10.80. 0870 1608080) www.timesonline.co.uk/booksfirst

IN 1922, T. S. ELIOT DEPICTED THE spiritual disintegration of Western culture in The Waste Land. In the legend of the Holy Grail, inhabitants of the wasteland live inauthentic lives, blindly following social norms without the conviction that comes of deeper understanding.

How could people put down creative roots in the “stony rubbish” of modernity, when they are familiar only with “a heap of broken images” — isolated and unassimilated shards of the mythical wisdom of the past? As he confronted the sterility of his civilisation, Eliot’s narrator concluded: “These fragments I have shored against my ruins.” Only if we piece together these broken insights and recognise their common core can we reclaim the wasteland in which we live.

In our rational society, we have lost touch with the mythical underpinning of our culture. Today “myth” often describes something that is not true. A politician accused of a peccadillo will say that it is a “myth”, that it never happened.

When we hear of gods walking the earth, of dead men striding out of tombs, or of seas parting to allow a favoured people to escape, we dismiss these stories as demonstrably false. In our historical writing, we are concerned above all with what actually happened but when people wrote about the past in the pre-modern period they were chiefly preoccupied with the significance of an event. A myth was an occurrence that, in some sense, had happened once, but which also happened all the time. Mythology pointed beyond history to what was timeless.

Mythology is not an early attempt at historical writing and its stories were never regarded as merely factual. In the pre-modern world, there were two recognised ways of arriving at truth, which the Greeks called mythos and logos. Both were considered essential and neither as inferior to the other. They were complementary modes of acquiring knowledge, each with its own distinct sphere of competence.

People used logos (“science; reason”) to function efficiently in the external world: this type of thinking was essential to the organisation of society or for the development of technology. Logos is pragmatic; it must correspond to objective facts. But it could not answer questions about the value of life nor mitigate the pain and sorrow that is an inescapable part of the human condition. That was the job of mythos. If a beloved friend died or if people witnessed an appalling natural disaster, they found that they did not simply want a rational explanation.

Instead they developed mythical narratives which, like poetry or music, brought comfort that could not be expressed in purely logical terms. They also gave voice to more elusive and mysterious aspects of life that have always been part of human experience. Like art, mythology was the product of the creative imagination; it transfigured our fragmented, tragic world and helped to glimpse new possibilities.

Mythology can be seen as an early form of psychology. The stories of gods or heroes descending into the underworld, threading through labyrinths and fighting with monsters brought to light the mysterious workings of the psyche and showed people how to deal with their turbulent inner world. When Freud and Jung began to formulate the quest for the soul, they instinctively turned to classical mythology to explain their insights.

A myth was not true because it was factual but because it was psychologically effective. If it forced people to change their minds and hearts, gave them hope, and compelled them to live more fully, it was valid, because it told us something important about how humanity worked.

A myth was a programme for action. The myth of the hero, which is remarkably similar in nearly all cultures, showed people what they must do to tap into their own heroic potential. The myth of Demeter and Persephone suggested that a disciplined confrontation with our mortality could lead to spiritual regeneration. A myth is a guide; it tells us what we must do to live more intensely. If we do not apply it to our own situation and make the myth a reality in our own lives, it will remain as incomprehensible as the rules of a board game, which often seem confusing and boring until we start to play. If we do not attempt to implement its directives, we cannot assess its truth.

More at Timesonline
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  #25  
Old 10-30-2005, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carleton Hughes
Original sin? there is no such thing extant in humanity.
.
Curious about this claim.
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  #26  
Old 10-30-2005, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry edwards
Curious about this claim.
Perhaps it would be salutary for the mind to recall that such concepts as original sin,holy trinity,english and roman mass,in fact all concepts,religious and otherwise through the ages are the inventions of men and therefore suspect!
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  #27  
Old 10-30-2005, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
The myth of mythology
Reviewed by Karen Armstrong
Legends aren’t supposed to be history; they are an understanding of what it means to be human. We forget them at our peril

A SHORT HISTORY OF MYTH
(Canongate £12; offer £10.80. 0870 1608080) www.timesonline.co.uk/booksfirst

IN 1922, T. S. ELIOT DEPICTED THE spiritual disintegration of Western culture in The Waste Land. In the legend of the Holy Grail, inhabitants of the wasteland live inauthentic lives, blindly following social norms without the conviction that comes of deeper understanding.

How could people put down creative roots in the “stony rubbish” of modernity, when they are familiar only with “a heap of broken images” — isolated and unassimilated shards of the mythical wisdom of the past? As he confronted the sterility of his civilisation, Eliot’s narrator concluded: “These fragments I have shored against my ruins.” Only if we piece together these broken insights and recognise their common core can we reclaim the wasteland in which we live.

In our rational society, we have lost touch with the mythical underpinning of our culture. Today “myth” often describes something that is not true. A politician accused of a peccadillo will say that it is a “myth”, that it never happened.

When we hear of gods walking the earth, of dead men striding out of tombs, or of seas parting to allow a favoured people to escape, we dismiss these stories as demonstrably false. In our historical writing, we are concerned above all with what actually happened but when people wrote about the past in the pre-modern period they were chiefly preoccupied with the significance of an event. A myth was an occurrence that, in some sense, had happened once, but which also happened all the time. Mythology pointed beyond history to what was timeless.

Mythology is not an early attempt at historical writing and its stories were never regarded as merely factual. In the pre-modern world, there were two recognised ways of arriving at truth, which the Greeks called mythos and logos. Both were considered essential and neither as inferior to the other. They were complementary modes of acquiring knowledge, each with its own distinct sphere of competence.

People used logos (“science; reason”) to function efficiently in the external world: this type of thinking was essential to the organisation of society or for the development of technology. Logos is pragmatic; it must correspond to objective facts. But it could not answer questions about the value of life nor mitigate the pain and sorrow that is an inescapable part of the human condition. That was the job of mythos. If a beloved friend died or if people witnessed an appalling natural disaster, they found that they did not simply want a rational explanation.

Instead they developed mythical narratives which, like poetry or music, brought comfort that could not be expressed in purely logical terms. They also gave voice to more elusive and mysterious aspects of life that have always been part of human experience. Like art, mythology was the product of the creative imagination; it transfigured our fragmented, tragic world and helped to glimpse new possibilities.

Mythology can be seen as an early form of psychology. The stories of gods or heroes descending into the underworld, threading through labyrinths and fighting with monsters brought to light the mysterious workings of the psyche and showed people how to deal with their turbulent inner world. When Freud and Jung began to formulate the quest for the soul, they instinctively turned to classical mythology to explain their insights.

A myth was not true because it was factual but because it was psychologically effective. If it forced people to change their minds and hearts, gave them hope, and compelled them to live more fully, it was valid, because it told us something important about how humanity worked.

A myth was a programme for action. The myth of the hero, which is remarkably similar in nearly all cultures, showed people what they must do to tap into their own heroic potential. The myth of Demeter and Persephone suggested that a disciplined confrontation with our mortality could lead to spiritual regeneration. A myth is a guide; it tells us what we must do to live more intensely. If we do not apply it to our own situation and make the myth a reality in our own lives, it will remain as incomprehensible as the rules of a board game, which often seem confusing and boring until we start to play. If we do not attempt to implement its directives, we cannot assess its truth.

More at Timesonline
Interesting article. When I read it the first thing that popped into mind was our latest natural disaster, Katrina. The size, the scope the number of people affected. If this had been 2000 years ago it would have been the anger of posiedon. Indeed the Imams are saying it's God's will. Interesting how in this country many attribute the suffering to Bush. Is he the representation of the "myth" that makes the disaster understandable?
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  #28  
Old 10-31-2005, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
Sin. In several languages, that means, "without." Is sin an anglo-saxon homophon of the latin cognate?

B

Sin sin?
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  #29  
Old 10-31-2005, 12:11 AM
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kerry edwards, aren't you a religion teacher? That religion prof here at my school's favorite theologian was Augustine. You should hear him ramble on. BTW, his class is by far my favorite. What sort of classes are you teaching now?

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  #30  
Old 10-31-2005, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MedMech
Why do people try to justify Muslim behavior because of some perverse Catholics. I wonder what sins the godless commit on a daily basis.
I'm not trying to justify anything, myself. The guys are half or maybe 3/4ths whacked. How about this "honor killing" booo-$h!t? The girl gets felt up and the brother is honor bound to kill her? Or she gets raped by a stranger, beat to hell, and again, a close male relative is duty bound to end her life to maintain family honor? Jeez, Louise....

It's hard to figure that kind of mindset. The only point I want to make is no one people has a lock on barbarism. We or our ancestors all been capable of it and proved the fact.

Some of the massacres of Native Americans in the late 1800s containded scenes of vicous depravity, according to eyewitnesses. I'll never know what my ancestors might have done in that. My dad's people were cattle men in Arizona/New Mexico going back to the mid 1800s, at least that's as far as we know. But, life is com - ill - cated. I can just picture this great-great-grandad of mine, a picture of whom I've seen, with his men around his chuckwagon, all of 'em looking like they're about to whoop your a$$. I wonder what he'd say if I could talk to him in weepy tones about the slaughter of the Indiginous peoples.

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