Buick PA vs. MB's?!

[spartonboat1]

So I have owned 4 MB's- 3 E class and a 190 and now 5 Buicks, including two Park Avenues. The MB's were great, until they broke...not fun...got left high and dry more than once.

If MB made the Park Ave. I think a lot of people would swoon, but of course it gets dissed big time. But here is my experience:
3.8 V6 with Supercharger
-0-60 7.4 secs, pretty fair,
-not unheard of to go 300-500K miles- dealer stories abound
-I had a 1988 3.8 that really needed no internals, such as timing chain at 150K miles, when water pump finally went out,
-Buick has made the 3.8 v6 since 1959 and has it sorted out, very few problems,

- Fuel Economy- got 29.1 mpg on recent trips on freeway at 70-75, plus some side roads at 55. Good to very good by any standard,
- I average 27.5 mpg in my daily 55 mile commute, mostly freeway. Again, very good IMHO.

This Park Ave has independent suspension with aluminun control arms at all four corners and rides, handles, and corners well. It has 4 wheel disc brakes with anti-lock, traction control, and yaw control and they modulate very well, but also function well.

The PA runs very smoothly and you better use the cruise control or you will be doing 85 without noticing. It is a well controlled ride, but yet very smooth.

The PA has side air bags and a 5-star crash rating, plus is rated very highly, including higher than MB and other brands for initial quality by JD Powers.

I have recently looked at used E-Class MB's (I sure cannot afford new) and frankly with the recent times poor quality issues, plus they did not ride that well, I did not think.

So the one concensus downside is that the shocks are weak (GM- what else). I think GM has done a very poor job of marketing what I think is one of the very best all around vehicles there is in terms of safety, quality, economy, and general driving pleasure.

Bet I get flamed...!!!

[PHAEDRUS242]

It's still a GM. Matter of personal taste I guess.

[spartonboat1]

Drop me a note about how wonderful the 2.8 six from the mid 70's was, with the lousy engineering oiling the cam from underneath, the cheap solution by MB to plug oil galleries, the two piece heads (yuck) and performance like a Chevy Vega. Also, include kind remarks about the single chain 3.8 V8's or the early 90's S class diesels.

On occasion, GM can make a good car, but MB has made it's share of dogs. I use to be nuts for MB, but since Rudy U. left, I think the engineers have been overrun by the bean counters. Maybe Dieter (Chrysler) will be sent back to Stuttgart and save them from themselves.

[89-300ce]

I have no problem with Buicks at all. If you live in the mid-west they are probably more appropriate than a Benz. I can't get to use the top speed and handling of the Benz around here but the Lazyboy ride of the Buick with the bottom end grunt that my roadmaster delivers is spot on for our straight as an arrow roads.

However, i need a defroster grille for on top of the dash because mine distorted due to the years and heat. Not available. I haven't had any problems ordering even the most obscure parts for the benz. The interior plastics and materials in general are a step below mercedes, but for function I can't fault the Buick at all.

Jorg

[Nate Stanley]

We just got a 2001 LeSabre last year, which is the same basic platform less the supercharger and other doodads not essential to driving.

Observations-

the overall fit and finish is ok but not up to the market Buick aspires to serve. The glove box door and pullout tray below the radio are cheaply made and could use more plastic to feel and look right.

Seats are hard in the wrong places, not as comfy as my W123 (I'm 6' 250 lbs).

the flipdown armrest / cup holder needs to be better padded and 2" longer to really be useful. Hard surfaces on the cupholder assy hit my arm - maybe it's sized for people who are just smaller.

At 92000 miles there is a slight rattle from the front end, may be ball joints.

There is a strange buzzing from the dash on "gatorback" roads, and the whole dash assy shakes when you let the tilt wheel flip to its upper position when you exit the car. They needed more steel in the dash support assy.


Steering is great, acceleration is also excellent, love the mileage (26+ on the road at 70+ going to LA),
loads of interior room, great sound system and trunk space, brakes are great, engine accessibility was well-thought out. After 20K miles and 1 year, all it has needed are oil and tires, which will be the 3rd set at 92k.

We paid just under 11 grand, and feel we got a good deal, and we would buy another one, only the replacement for this car is supposed to be the Lucerne, which is unfortunate because that what Safeway brands its dairy products. Maybe it will sell well in Wisconsin.

Is it as solid as a Benz? Not even close.
Nothing is that solid, (I'm using W123 and W126 cars as a basis for comparison).

But for the money, if you can get around the gripes I have found with mine, the big Buicks are a good value for the money if you let someone else eat the first 3 years of depreciation.

I've seen Buicks last a long time as well. A friend of mine actually has a Buick Reatta! Itsa 99, and he just drove it up to KC from Dallas Texas last week. Pretyy solid car actually, a little unusual but put together well. It also has the 3.8 motor I believe.

[Hatterasguy]

I have tried to like GM cars but can't. Sorry that 3.8 V6 sounds like crap. Any pushrod engine sounds like a crappy blender when you get on it. MB would be a joke if they ever came out with an engine like the 3.8 heck any company would. Even Honda has a sweet V6. Not to mention the Honda V6 makes more power n/a.

Brakes are not that good.

Fit and finish is ok, I don't like the shifter on the steering colume, I think that is a poor design.

The body's seem to love to flex and make strange sounds.

They rattle oh do they rattle.

Handling is ok, but the body will roll.

Replacement parts are hard to get after 10 years, GM stops carrying stuff.

Maybe the new Buicks are better, but I wouldn't put one up against a Toyota yet alone a MB.

[boneheaddoctor]

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

I have tried to like GM cars but can't. Sorry that 3.8 V6 sounds like crap. Any pushrod engine sounds like a crappy blender when you get on it. MB would be a joke if they ever came out with an engine like the 3.8 heck any company would. Even Honda has a sweet V6. Not to mention the Honda V6 makes more power n/a.

Brakes are not that good.

Fit and finish is ok, I don't like the shifter on the steering colume, I think that is a poor design.

The body's seem to love to flex and make strange sounds.

They rattle oh do they rattle.

Handling is ok, but the body will roll.

Replacement parts are hard to get after 10 years, GM stops carrying stuff.

Maybe the new Buicks are better, but I wouldn't put one up against a Toyota yet alone a MB.

The 3.8 is a good motor.........and no it doesn't sound wierd....my moms last 3 cars had that motor....and 2 of my previous cars.......they take a LOT of abuse and keep runing without a problem.

[chazola]

My wife's grandma has a LeSabre and it's def. an old people car, right down to the huge instrument dials and clunky gear selector. Drives and looks like a boat, but seats 6 people pretty comfortably and seems decently put together.
It's taken grandma Righetti faithfully to the hairdressers to have her cotton-head done every week and negotiated the tricky Pathmark car park perfectly for 4 years now without complaint. All I've had to do for her is put air in her tyres and make sure she got her oil changed. For a retirement cruiser it seems like a good solid car, but as a 28 y/o I felt kinda embarrassed driving it around. A benz is definately more of a driver's car with personality.

[spartonboat1]

I think that many posts reflect old truism's about older GM products, not all currently true. Plus the reputations of " some" (unfortunately not all) the GM's vs. the MB's does have current merit.

Regarding remarks:
"Sorry that 3.8 V6 sounds like crap": Run out the Buick 3.8 mit kompressor and it is a different engine- sounds great. Compares well performance wise and "sounds" better than the v6 MB, IMHO.

Even Honda has a sweet V6. OK, so I agree...but poorer mpg!

"Brakes are not that good". I beg to differ...the 4 wheel discs on the Park Ave perform quite well, esp. with the anti-locks and yaw control...

"Fit and finish is ok" Better look at recent MB vs. Buick in the JD Power ratings

"I don't like the shifter on the steering column"...OK, I would like to have paddles, on the column,

"The body's seem to love to flex and make strange sounds." No basis in the real world on the current Park Avenue.

"They rattle oh do they rattle." ditto, not true...only a W140 has exceeded bad roads response and NVH...in my experience...W140 is a veritable aircraft carrier...

Handling is ok, but the body will roll. Yup, somewhat true, but is set up just right for "normal" driving, e.g. on-ramps, off-ramps, rapid avoidance with yaw control. You want to hot rod, get a Cadillac CTS-V...will smoke just about any sedan going...

"Replacement parts are hard to get after 10 years, GM stops carrying stuff." Somewhat true, called "out of policy" after 11 years. BUT, the MB dealers blow you off, if you try to keep up an older MB to "the good old days" standards. Not nearly as ready to keep an old MB to tough standards. They are as bad at some dealers as the US brands...I got really fed up with their attitudes about old MB's, or even following strict maintenance.

"Maybe the new Buicks are better, but I wouldn't put one up against a Toyota yet alone a MB." On what basis?! Quality- better have a huge bankroll to keep current MB on the road. Why did a long time MB salesman tell to under no circumstances buy a used MB without StarMark or an extended warranty!! Toyota...yeah, you have a point...but I call Toyota seats "100 mile cars"...ok, until the long miles kick in, then get me the Buick.

True Story: Got off plane at Kansas City, took shuttle to rental cars...whole bus shouted "Yes, Buicks!!"...all the Buicks were taken inside 5 minutes, before any other cars...OK, slow pitch softball for jokes about travelers with rental car taste...but you take a long flight in a modern airliner...you don't want to get beat up at the end of the day.

So if rigorous comparisons were made based on recent quality audits, powertrains, and platforms, instead of 5 year old platforms, I don't think the disparities would be quite so great between my choice, the Buick Park Ave and MB. Esp. on price!

[Wodnek]

I have two Buick Roadmasters. My 92 has a throtle body 350 (5.7L) gets 16 city 19 hwy and has 217,000 miles on it. Almost rust free. My wife's year round ride.

My 94 has the LT1 V8 260 horses. If you floor the pedal will sit in one place for a second smoking the tire before it starts to move. A real hot rod with an old mans car look. This gets me 18 city and 24 to 26 hwy. This was a one owner, never been smoked in, never seen snow or salt, and never had the back seat sat in, when I bought it. I only drive it in the summer.

My 85 300 D gets about 22 to 24 in mixed driving and is my daily driver year round. 158,000 miles on it.

All are good cars. I think the Roadmaster 94-96 was the finest car to come from GM. I have always been partial to RWD cars.

[Hatterasguy]

You need a new dealer, I can get the smallist most bs part from my dealer no problem. MB still makes everything for my 17 year old SDL, GM would tell you to take a hike. I have no problem getting anything for my SDL and the dealer service is excellent.

I have driven a pumped 3.8 in a rental Pontiac, yawn. I have also driven a 04 Honda coupe I would pay extra and live with slightly less mileage any day of the week. I don't care who makes it pushrod engines do not sound good when you get on them. Old technology the world has moved on.

Which E class did you drive? MB doesn't spring their cars soft like a boat so they will ride a little stiffer. In Germany on the Autobahn stiffer suspension is needed at high speeds. The new W211 is an awsome car, I look forward to owning one someday.

Sorry I am just not a GM fan.

E420 vs Buick Regal GS

a little racing fun.

[jbwabco]

one of the best cars i ever owned was an 84 lesabre limited (2 door) it was powered by the 4.1L v6 (virtually the same as the 3.8L) at 4200 lbs and even with a 4bbl and tailwind it didn't accellerate worth a damn. but was reliable as hell and was like sitting on your living room sofa when driving

[89-300ce]

I have to disagree with you on the pushrod engines thing. I don't know what you are hearing but hydraulic lifters are comon on pushrod and dohc engines as far as I know. I would say that pushrods make more sense on V engines than OHC or DOHC. As for performance look to GM's pushrod V8's in the Corvettes or Camaros and tell me what you would gain with DOHC other than complexity and an enormous bill for a rebuild. On inlilne motors I would happily go with DOHC but with V's I'll stay with pushrods.

Jorg

[yal]

The push rod V6' s are next to perfect. Yeah they sound a little unrefined, yeah they are old designs but my god man what can you say to the reliabilty, the durabilty and the gas mileage on these things but impressive.
I don't look down on American cars like this for any of their engine or drive train mechanics but I do look down on them for body and interior quality and for crying out loud why can't they make a car that I would like to be seen in and why can't the cars feel "planted" to the ground. Yeah call me fickle but those things are important to me.
Now that CTS caught my attention. Do more of that GM and i'll come knocking one day. I havent had a chance to look at the Lucerne but it looks promising in pictures but I am not holding my breath