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  #1  
Old 03-05-2006, 11:55 AM
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Polygamy in Ceder City AZ

Saw an update on this story on 20/20 the other night. Sickens me that this is tolerated here, and from the report there must be a psych hospital in Flagstaff that empowers them somewhat, by treating those women that don't obey their husbands.
What sickens me though isn't the idea that maybe some women would find this sort of arrangement a plus, or that after wars or where there were only a few good men it might even be important. It's the way they preach the rightness of it to the kids and seem to under the table cater to a masculine lust for abusing young girls. I've known so many women that have been ruined by abuse that it really affects me.
As I watched the program, and what they didn't address, is how this group earned the money to afford some of the huge compounds they lived in, or fed all the little kids. It also seemed they were really unattractive which is the opposite of what I'd expect.
It's been a long time since the Indians killed so many of the Mormon men that they had a reason for promoting this. Why doesn't their church put an end to it? How can this be allowed to continue?

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Old 03-05-2006, 12:08 PM
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Society is under pressure to evolve as technology and biology and so forth increase our options. In the old days sexual intercourse meant babies so we developed all manner of taboos to prevent sexual relations without lots of safeguards to protect the mom and baby.

We have now successfully separated sexual relations from reproduction, yet the old taboos still guide us to a great extent. The pressures are from all sides. Sexual relations, no longer an inseparable function of reproduction, are now viewed as a fundamental human right. So homosexuals are now able to make a reasonable argument that they should have full access to the same social parameters and benefits as heterosexuals. The taboo against homosexuality is almost gone in most western liberal democracies. Other taboos are under heavy assault.

Why not polygamy or polyandry? Is it the Mormon theology that makes it seem wrong? What if it were a clutch of feminist lesbians wanting a group marriage? Etc.

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Old 03-05-2006, 01:05 PM
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Among consenting adults, is one thing. Whether many of these women are consenting or brainwashed is another matter. Kids raised in this environment don't have a full set of data. It seems we're in an age where people are more able to be manipulated by advertisers or film and less raised. That's not stated correctly but the pressure for acceptance or to be part of some group seems to me to be making people, in larger urban areas at least, more gullible. My sense of it anyway. I mean Why'd you really buy a Merc makes sense or to impress.
All of this cowboy homo movie stuff is starting to make me face that fact that, as open minded as I think I am, I'm not. The whole thing gives me the creeps. Intellectually, I don't care what adults want to do as long as it does not adversely affect my family, but now, for the first time ever, definite lines are being drawn in my mind about appropriateness. How can a movie that nobody wants to see be the best? What is the affect of letting kids think this is normal or desirable for people that somehow have some gene or not well maybe that's what it's about I'll never know unless somebody tells me. How many women married to some guy who just can't bring himself to tell her he's bored with her, or just not into sex with her any more, start thinking he's gay? I did hear that part of it. It's how many socially retarded kids with no genetic trait to gayness think maybe just to have some friends, or a fear of girls or something, get into this lifestyle, because it must be OK?
Wow this is a sharp turn from Ceder City and I need to clear some land today, so I'm off this could turn into an essay I'm afraid.
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  #4  
Old 03-05-2006, 01:32 PM
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I bought an MB because Ford and GM kept obsoleting parts. I don't want to buy new because everyone knows that the first owner takes the biggest hit from depreciation. Drive the $40K car off the lot and try sell it. Now it has lost a huge chunk of change. I buy cars that are about 3 -5 years old in good condition. In 02, I couldn't get a battery cable for my 91 Firebird. Why? Obsolete. Also, I have friends that fix MBs to help me now and then. Besides,I bought it to impress the one person I care about. ME!! Doesn't impress you? Oh well. Lessee, you signing my paycheck or having sex with me? No? Then I don't care.

For a movie that nobody wants to see, it seemed to have done decently in the Box Office, if you are talking about Brokeback Mountain, IIRC. In Jan, it brought in twice what it cost to make. Am I worried about my kids watching it? Doubtful. Why? Because it doesn't matter. I watched a lot of films and documentaries about all sorts of things. Did I adopt most of them? Nope.
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Old 03-05-2006, 04:10 PM
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It's a well known but unspoken fact of Utah life that polygamy still exists among breakaway "Mormon" groups, most of them in the southern part of the state, as well as in Mormon-settled parts of Arizona, Idaho and Nevada. A few years ago a senior official, either the attorney general or the then-governor, Mike Leavitt, made the mistake of saying something to the effect of "don't ask, don't tell, we have other priorities for law enforcement", which caused a brief ruckus. It's not a case of consenting (and educated and well-informed) adults. Girls in these communities are taken as "sister-wives" at 13-14 (sometimes younger), often by their uncles as in a major case in SLC a few years back where the young girl escaped and the family was prosecuted. Bot, I agree with your generally libertarian perspective - consenting adults should be able to enter into consensual agreements with each other to do just about anything, imho - but I don't think you'd be too pleased if your brother took your 13 year old daughter home to bed. It's just not right.

Not too sure where the religious basis for polygamy in the LDS church began, but my limited understanding is that Joseph Smith, a pretty notorious skirt-chaser, had a "revelation" in favor of polygamy. Brigham Young, a lively and virile guy, was more than happy to continue the practice when he took over after Smith was murdered. Young had (iirc) 18 or 20 wives; most Mormon families at the time were monogomous, however, for economic reasons - nobody was as wealthy as Young in the early church. Conveniently, when Utah wanted to ascend to statehood and the US Congress effectively said that wouldn't happen with polygamy intact, the then-president of the church had a clarifying revelation that polygamy was no longer acceptable to God (must have been an interesting drafting session). Today's polygamists are descendants of the mostly isolated communities that refused to accept the hypocrisy of that decision.

It's an interesting place to live.
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  #6  
Old 03-05-2006, 04:28 PM
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13-14 y.o. with an adult? 'round here we call that, "child molestation." And I believe that to be true, regardless of the genders. Interestingly, this is a social taboo in our culture but other cultures have different taboos. I think the permissive cultures are wrong, but I cannot prove it.

Nor am I arguing that all taboos should die. I'm not anywhere near sure which taboos are reasonable and unreasonable, given the vast changes that have occurred in gaining power over former biological restraints and the evolving definitions of human rights. I suppose we will keep a few, discard most, and develop some new ones to deal with new issues.
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Old 03-05-2006, 04:43 PM
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If we're talking Colorado City, according to Krakauer in 'Under the Banner of Heaven', only the first wife is legal. The rest are legally 'single mothers' so qualify for welfare benefits. That's where a huge portion of the money comes from. As I recall, Krakauer actually has $$ figures on how much welfare goes into Colorado City.
No problem with group marriages from my point of view. The problem in this instance is not so much the group marriage as the fact that arises from brainwashing thru religious authoritarianism. Children are pulled into it before they have a chance to think for themselves. I wouldn't see it as a problem if their kids were required to grow up, leave the town, go to college, experience the world, then come back and see if they want to hook up with some ugly fat, perverted authoritarian bastard. If they do it under the those circumstances, there's no one to blame but themselves.
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Old 03-05-2006, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry edwards
Children are pulled into it before they have a chance to think for themselves. I wouldn't see it as a problem if their kids were required to grow up, leave the town, go to college, experience the world, then come back and see if they want to hook up with some ugly fat, perverted authoritarian bastard.
Aside from the ugly, fat, perverted authoritarian bastard part, I believe that's how it frequently (usually?) works among the Amish. Amish teenagers are permitted, if not encouraged, to go out and live in "the world" for a while to sow their wild oats and get some perspective. Apparently the return rate is high enough that the community maintains itself, and those that return don't have to wonder what they're missing.
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Old 03-05-2006, 05:42 PM
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The Amish can sow their wild oats, but I don't think they get much education past the 8th grade. I think you at least need a high school education to have much of an appreciation for the modern world. Without it, I think an Amish kid would feel lost in the 'outside' world. I remember learning something a few years ago about high levels of sexual abuse of young girls in the Amish community too.
I think it's pretty closely related to the power/patriarchy/authority structure of those communities. The children, particularly the female children, never get a chance to develop a free individual sense of self, so they never see any other choices available to them. I wonder what the departure statistics are for males versus females.
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Old 03-07-2006, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crash9
Why doesn't their church put an end to it? How can this be allowed to continue?
Officially "the church" banned this practise many years ago. Like in 1890. I heard about this TV program, but didn't actually see it for myself. Been there, done that. But one thing I did hear about it, is that they apparently didn't differentiate these groups from "the church", giving unknowing people the impression it's still practiced/allowed.
Let me just make it clear:
IT IS NOT ALLOWED!!!
Those who participate, are summarily excommunicated. Period.

PCDave has some of his facts straight, but kinda loses it, as alot of folks do. I don't have time to go into it all right now. But basically, one of our beliefs, is to "obey the law of the land". Polygamy was out lawed (it wasn't against the law when it was instated), so it was done away with. That's the simple version.
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Old 03-07-2006, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickg
Been there, done that.
How should we interpret this comment?
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  #12  
Old 03-07-2006, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickg
Officially "the church" banned this practise many years ago. Like in 1890. I heard about this TV program, but didn't actually see it for myself. Been there, done that. But one thing I did hear about it, is that they apparently didn't differentiate these groups from "the church", giving unknowing people the impression it's still practiced/allowed.
Let me just make it clear:
IT IS NOT ALLOWED!!!
Those who participate, are summarily excommunicated. Period.
I hear you, but I can not read you. These groups identify themselves as Mormon. Why doesn't the church lead a movement to end what brings shame to your faith?
Arizona is not as Mormon as Utah, but there is a strong presence in rural areas. I know you didn't see the show, but one thing that totally shocked me is that a mental health clinic in Flagstaff held women in confinement for treatment. This clinic is regular Mormon. What was their mental illness? They didn't obey their husbands, and wanted out!!!!

Let me amend my statement about the clinic being straight Mormon. It was clear that it was to large a facility to be owned by these people from Colorado City (I don't know where I got Ceder City from other than I've stopped there for gas) and Flagstaff is a good deal away from there. That wasn't completely clear and I'm making an assumption.
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Last edited by crash9; 03-07-2006 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 03-09-2006, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry edwards
How should we interpret this comment?
Oh, sorry Kerry. My attempts at being brief often don't come across right.
I just meant that, when I heard about another program on TV about this issue, I just passed it by, having seen and heard about everything that's been aimed at our church on this issue, and didn't feel the need to hear it all again.
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Old 03-09-2006, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crash9
I hear you, but I can not read you. These groups identify themselves as Mormon. Why doesn't the church lead a movement to end what brings shame to your faith?
Arizona is not as Mormon as Utah, but there is a strong presence in rural areas. I know you didn't see the show, but one thing that totally shocked me is that a mental health clinic in Flagstaff held women in confinement for treatment. This clinic is regular Mormon. What was their mental illness? They didn't obey their husbands, and wanted out!!!!

Let me amend my statement about the clinic being straight Mormon. It was clear that it was to large a facility to be owned by these people from Colorado City (I don't know where I got Ceder City from other than I've stopped there for gas) and Flagstaff is a good deal away from there. That wasn't completely clear and I'm making an assumption.
There's not really much anyone can do about who decides to call themselves Mormon, or Muslim, or Jewish, or whatever. "We" generally choose to just go on about our buisness, and let the dissenters dig themselves into trouble, which they always do. "We" choose to not bring the level of negative attention to ourselves that any kind crusade or lawsuit would bring. Guess that's about as simple as I can put it. We just try to do what we can as individuals, like I'm doing here, to set a few facts straight.
There's so much wrong information and perceptions about us out there, it'd be a lost cause to try and straighten it all out. About every other "Christian" church has their stacks of literature about us, so they can give their followers the "straight facts" about us. I was amazed at what I learned people thought they knew about us when I did my 2 years of missionary service in the Houston area in the late 70's. Was a real eye opener. for a young guy. I wondered myself why we didn't get busy and straighten everybody out. But I've since learned it'd be a task to great. Energy is better spent in other ways.
Like I've said on this forum before, if I wanted to learn about, oh, say, the Baptists, I'd go talk to a Baptist, not someone in my church(unless they'd been one). Oh, yeah, I guess that kinda backfires on me, as alot of the anti-mormon litrature out there has been written by ex-members of our church. Aw well, you get the idea.
I've got no axe to grind, and don't have a chip on my shoulder. But I don't like false info being spread around. So forgive my disertation here.
I'm not sure about that clinic you refer to. I'd seriously doubt it was a church-sanctioned clinic, but don't know anything about it.

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