Tapes reveal WMD plans by Saddam - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

crash9 · #61 03-17-2006, 02:23 PM

Well OK for the fine points. I doubt if a lot of Shiites in So Iraq even know what the UN is. We had encouraged them to rise up and overthrow Saddam and gave them the assurance we'd be behind them. It was the reason for the embargo and it's my understanding that we had some troops in S. Iraq that were pulled out when events didn't favor a push into Baghdad.
It's all water under the bridge, but just adds to the mistrust of us in the region, or how to take our word when it's not in our best interest to honor it. We're the outsider and when things go wrong we'll get the blame no matter what. To think things will suddenly go right in the Mideast, and we'll come out on top is just nuts.
There are no options that I can see as good ones anymore. We broke it – we own it. McCain/Powell in 2008

aklim · #62 03-17-2006, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

And it proved why France and Germany were sucking up to Saddam...he was bribing half the UN.

France, Russia and China. Didn't they have a vested interest in Iraq? I thought Iraq owed big bucks to Russia but with their current situation cannot pay. With a regime change, they won't pay. So there is motivation for Russia. IIRC, France had huge contracts waiting for lifting of sanctions. Hmmmm.

aklim · #63 03-17-2006, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

Not agreed on either count. Your points would be true if the only choices were (1) keep "the sanctions" in place; (2) do nothing; or (3) invade. Since that is a false choice, I don't agree. We should have tried other options before invading. Maybe an invasion was inevitable, but since W pulled the trigger prematurely, his war might never be recognized as a moral war.

Like what options? Write another resolution? How many already were written?

aklim · #64 03-17-2006, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

How would I know? Are you saying that there were no other alternatives?

Bush people can say all they want that there were no other alternatives, but since none were tried, we will never know. Even if all other approaches failed, we would have been better off for trying. If we had exhausted all alternatives short of invading, which is the approach that Bush claimed to have followed, then we would have had less international opposition and maybe a greater level of international support. Even if other countries failed to get on board, we would at least know that we did the right thing, which is worth a lot.I don't think it was inevitable and I never said any such thing.

So you don't know but you say there are alternatives. OK. Well, the UN's alternative was more of the same.

Why would the other countries get on board? It is not in their interests. There are huge debts and contracts that are waiting to be executed.

Honus · #65 03-17-2006, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So you don't know but you say there are alternatives.

I don't think I said that there were alternatives. My point is that the party doing the invading has the burden of proving that all alternatives were exhausted. W didn't even try to do that.

Quote:

Well, the UN's alternative was more of the same.

That's not what I recall. My recollection is that the inspections were getting more and more intrustive, but W called them off and invaded.

Quote:

Why would the other countries get on board? It is not in their interests. There are huge debts and contracts that are waiting to be executed.

That might be true, although there has been so much inaccurate reporting about all that, I don't know what to believe. But, assuming what you say is true, it was in our national interest to be able to say that we gave everybody an opportunity to do the right thing, that all alternatives were exhausted before we invaded, and that we had no choice but to invade. Having failed to do all that, we just give our would-be allies around the world excuses to not help us out.

boneheaddoctor · #66 03-17-2006, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

I don't think I said that there were alternatives. My point is that the party doing the invading has the burden of proving that all alternatives were exhausted. W didn't even try to do that.That's not what I recall. My recollection is that the inspections were getting more and more intrustive, but W called them off and invaded.That might be true, although there has been so much inaccurate reporting about all that, I don't know what to believe. But, assuming what you say is true, in was in our national interest to be able to say that we gave everybody an opportunity to do the right thing, that all alternatives were exhausted before we invaded, and that we had no choice but to invade. Having failed to do all that, we just give our enemies around the world excuses to not help us out.

Who said you have to esist all alternatives were exhausted before invading.....Kosovo seems to come to mind.

Honus · #67 03-17-2006, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

Who said you have to esist all alternatives were exhausted before invading.....Kosovo seems to come to mind.

Well, W for one. He said that invading was a last resort for him. It's a nice sentiment, it's just not true in his case.

Kosovo had large-scale ethnic cleansing going on. Time was of the essence. Not so in Iraq.

boneheaddoctor · #68 03-17-2006, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

Well, W for one. He said that invading was a last resort for him. It's a nice sentiment, it's just not true in his case.

Kosovo had large-scale ethnic cleansing going on. Time was of the essence. Not so in Iraq.

well we didn't exhaust all options there did we....but then I guess the rules apply differently when a democrat is in office.

and yes there was wholesale slaughter happening to both the Kurds and the Shiites in the southern swamps...

Honus · #69 03-17-2006, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

well we didn't exhaust all options there did we...

Actually, I think we did.

Quote:

and yes there was wholesale slaughter happening to both the Kurds and the Shiites in the southern swamps...

In 2003?

boneheaddoctor · #70 03-17-2006, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

Actually, I think we did.In 2003?

lot of wholsale murder after 1992 to before whe kicked the evil SOB out of office.

And if 12 years in Iraq isn't exhausting all options then what do you call 6 monthsbefore invading in Kosovo? hell there is another 11.5 years of options to exhaust at least.

aklim · #71 03-17-2006, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

lot of wholsale murder after 1992 to before whe kicked the evil SOB out of office.

And if 12 years in Iraq isn't exhausting all options then what do you call 6 monthsbefore invading in Kosovo? hell there is another 11.5 years of options to exhaust at least.

6 months, 12 years. It's all time but who's counting?

12 years and he still won't fully comply with the writing he or his emmissaries signed, how much more time do you want? Till he dies a natural death and his sons take over?

Botnst · #72 03-17-2006, 05:43 PM

New Documents from Saddam Hussein's Archives Discuss Bin Laden, WMDs
U.S. Government Releases Papers From Saddam's Reign

March 16, 2006 — Following are the ABC News Investigative Unit's summaries of four of the nine Iraqi documents from Saddam Hussein's government, which were released by the U.S. government Wednesday.

The documents discuss Osama bin Laden, weapons of mass destruction, al Qaeda and more.

The full documents can be found on the U.S. Army Foreign Military Studies Office Web site: http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/products-docex.htm.

Note: Document titles were added by ABC News.

"Osama bin Laden and the Taliban"

Document dated Sept. 15, 2001

An Iraqi intelligence service document saying that their Afghani informant, who's only identified by a number, told them that the Afghani Consul Ahmed Dahastani claimed the following in front of him:

That OBL and the Taliban are in contact with Iraq and that a group of Taliban and bin Laden group members visited Iraq.
That the U.S. has proof the Iraqi government and "bin Laden's group" agreed to cooperate to attack targets inside America.
That in case the Taliban and bin Laden's group turn out to be involved in "these destructive operations," the U.S. may strike Iraq and Afghanistan.
That the Afghani consul heard about the issue of Iraq's relationship with "bin Laden's group" while he was in Iran.

At the end, the writer recommends informing "the committee of intentions" about the above-mentioned items. The signature on the document is unclear.

(Editor's Note: The controversial claim that Osama bin Laden was cooperating with Saddam Hussein is an ongoing matter of intense debate. While the assertions contained in this document clearly support the claim, the sourcing is questionable — i.e. an unnamed Afghan "informant" reporting on a conversation with another Afghan "consul." The date of the document — four days after 9/11 — is worth noting but without further corroboration, this document is of limited evidentiary value.)

"Election Campaign Laws in France"

Documents dated July-August 1999

Correspondence regarding election campaigns in France. This includes a document from the Iraqi intelligence service classified as "secret," ordering the translation of important parts of a 1997 report about campaign financing laws in France. It also includes a document from the foreign minister's office indicating the report was attached. The attached translated report included very detailed information about all the regulations regarding financing of election campaigns in France. Translation was done by someone called "Salam Abdul Karim Mohammed."

(Editor's Note: This is an intriguing document which suggests Saddam Hussein's regime had a strong interest in the mechanics and legalities of financial contributions to French politicians. Several former French politicians are implicated in receiving oil vouchers from Iraq under the U.N. Oil for Food program.)

A letter from the Iraqi intelligence service to directors and managers advising them to follow certain procedures in case of a search by the U.N. team, including:

Removing correspondence with the atomic energy and military industry departments concerning the prohibited weapons (proposals, research, studies, catalogs, etc.). Removing prohibited materials and equipment, including documents and catalogs and making sure to clear labs and storages of any traces of chemical or biological materials that were previously used or stored. Doing so through a committee which will decide whether to destroy the documents.
Removing files from computers.

The letter also advises them on how they should answer questions by U.N. team members. It says the intelligence service should be informed within one week about the progress made in discarding the documents.

(Editor's Note: This document is consistent with the Report of the Special Advisor to the Director of Central Intelligence, which described a pattern of deception and concealment on the part of Saddam Hussein's government towards the U.N. inspectors in the mid to late 90's. Hussein halted all cooperation with those inspectors and expelled them in October 1998.)

"Al Qaeda Presence in Iraq"

Document dated August 2002

A number of correspondences to check rumors that some members of al Qaeda organization have entered Iraq. Three letters say this information cannot be confirmed. The letter on page seven, however, says that information coming from "a trustworthy source" indicates that subjects who are interested in dealing with al Qaeda are in Iraq and have several passports.

The letter seems to be coming from or going to Trebil, a town on the Iraqi-Jordanian border. Follow up on the presence of those subjects is ordered, as well as comparison of their pictures with those of Jordanian subjects living in Iraq. (This may be referring to pictures of Abu Musaab al Zarqawi and another man on pages 4-6) The letter also says tourist areas, including hotels and rented apartments, should be searched.

(Editor's note: This document indicates that the Iraqis were aware of and interested in reports that members of al Qaeda were present in Iraq in 2002. The document does not support allegations that Iraq was colluding with al Qaeda.)