Interesting take on Mexico... - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Lebenz · #16 05-05-2006, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

Yeah , Mexico need more illegals just like we do......NOT.

If they took care of their culture of curruption down there they wouldn't have people trying to flee. And that applies to places south of Mexico as well.

...

BENZ-LGB · #17 05-05-2006, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebenz

...

That was a mouthful. Don't hold back now.

Lebenz · #18 05-05-2006, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

450SLCGUY, I agree with you 100%.

That has been my point all along. Cut off the supply of cheap, illegal labor and employers will have to pay higher wages. Everyone's standard of living goes up, everyone wins.

The whole debate has been about improving conditions for Americans, not about racism.

I wonder about the motivation for "the whole debate"

You know something about the law. Why not prosecute the employers? Not just a hand slap, or nothing, but jail the company proprietors and/or CEO/CFO/COO and, liquidate the company or force it to be sold. And deport the illegals. A few hundred of those events hit the papers and the opportunity for for these folks to become employed would most likely vanish. Add several thousand police to patrol the border and that pretty much ties up future opportunity.

In contrast, what we have is posturing and redirecting of blame while actually doing little or nothing. It all stinks of duplicity. Of course there is always the lame and irrelevant name calling and the rah rah crowd that goes with.

Botnst · #19 05-05-2006, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebenz

I wonder about the motivation for "the whole debate"

You know something about the law. Why not prosecute the employers? Not just a hand slap, or nothing, but jail the company proprietors and/or CEO/CFO/COO and, liquidate the company or force it to be sold. And deport the illegals. A few hundred of those events hit the papers and the opportunity for for these folks to become employed would most likely vanish. Add several thousand police to patrol the border and that pretty much ties up future opportunity.

In contrast, what we have is posturing and redirecting of blame while actually doing little or nothing. It all stinks of duplicity. Of course there is always the lame and irrelevant name calling and the rah rah crowd that goes with.

Yep.

The Congress even put some dramatic laws on the books so that Reagan would open the floodgates. Both sides winked at each other and essentially ignored their own laws for the following 25 years.

Perp-walking a couple of dozen CEO's would work wonders.

BENZ-LGB · #20 05-05-2006, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lebenz

I wonder about the motivation for "the whole debate"

You know something about the law. Why not prosecute the employers? Not just a hand slap, or nothing, but jail the company proprietors and/or CEO/CFO/COO and, liquidate the company or force it to be sold. And deport the illegals. A few hundred of those events hit the papers and the opportunity for for these folks to become employed would most likely vanish. Add several thousand police to patrol the border and that pretty much ties up future opportunity.

In contrast, what we have is posturing and redirecting of blame while actually doing little or nothing. It all stinks of duplicity. Of course there is always the lame and irrelevant name calling and the rah rah crowd that goes with.

I can't speak for others and their motivations, but let me tell you one of the reasons why I am opposed to illegal immigration (I think you meant to ask).

Illegal immigration creates a permanent underclass of mostly Hispanic individuals. There may be other groups, but Hispanics are the most visible.

As long as there is a large, and permanent, underclass of Hispanics, they will amount to nothing but fruit pcikers, toilet scrubbers and nannies. No education no progress, simple as that. Children of illegal aliens, living in the US, have a greater than 50% drop out rate from high school.Why? They are not dumber or less motivated to study. Their parents yank them out of school to help the family earn a living. I have personally seen this phenomenon.

So why should it bother me that there is a permanent underclass of Hispanics? I am a lawyer, I have college degrees, I live in a nice neighborhood, I drive nice cars, my kids are all well educated. Why should I care?

Well, I care because as long as I am a Hispanic, many will see me and my children as nothing but fruit pickers, toilet scrubbers or nannies. They assume all Hispanics are the same. That is why it is important to me that all Hispanics do well.

Why do people look at Asian kids or Indian kids and automatically assume that they are the brainy ones? It is not because Asians or Indians have a monopoly in brains. I refuse to believe that Asians or Indians are any smarter (or any dumber) than I am or that any Hispanic is. I refuse to accept that Asians or Indians have a monopoly in cranial horsepower. But they do not come to the US in massive droves of illegal immigrants (even though there is as much poverty in their countries as there is in Mexico). They do not do the menial jobs that Mexicans and other Hispanics do. And, they do not pull their kids out of school in order to have them help support the family. They work hard, in important jobs, and they push their kids to excel. So we all think that they smarter than everyone else.

There is a a stereotype of the dumb, backward, submissive Mexican (or substitute most other Hispanics here). "Si Senor. No Senor. Whatever Senor."

Most stereotypes have some basis in fact. The facts here are that because of their massive numbers, illegal alien Mexicans and other similarly illegal alien Hispanics, are kept permanently poor, permanently uneducated and permanently ABAJO.

Cesar Chavez understood this very well when he advocated strict immigration controls. He wanted farm workers here to be fully legal and thus fully vested of all rights and opportunities.

But if you have a population of 12 million (or more) illegal Hispanic immigrants, what power do they have?

Economic power? Not really, if some walk out of their jobs, there are millions other waiting at the border to take their place.

Buying power? A little. According to an L.A.-based economist, Monday's marches and boycott hasaless than 5% on the L.A. economy. And L.A. is at ground zero of the whole illegal immigration influx.

Poilitical power? Hardly. You are not a citizen you don't get to vote and you don't get to make a difference -- plain and simple.

Do I want to give free amnesty and legalize all those who are already here? ABSOLUTELY NOT! We tried that. It did not work and it only encourages others to cross illegally.

The guest worker program (the bracero program) is unworkable.

So, call me selfish if you want to. I want Hispanics to achieve the same level of success as the Irish, the Poles, the Germans, the Jews, the Italians, the Eastern Europeans -- or even Cubans (often refrred as the Jews of the Caribbean) -- have achieved. Plain and simple.

BTW,I do understand that Cuban immigrants may be an anomaly. For the most part, the Cubans who came to the U.S. in the early through the late 1960s were the educated middle class. If you are an immigrant lawyer or doctor you drive a taxi cab for a while, but eventually you get to practice your profession. So I understand that there are differences. But, if you limit the flow (limit it, not cut it off completley) of the uneducated and the poor, then even them will have a better chance to do well.

In my humble opinion and in the opinion of many, Hispanics will never rise above their present underlcass status as long as they keep illegally streaming across the border.

And as to your question regaridng the law --I would love to prosecute some of these employers and seize their assets. Have them do the perp walk, like soem of the guys from Enron, et al.

Those are federal laws and why the Feds (Dems and Republicans) sit back and do nothing is a lasting indictment of their hipocrisy and myopia.

POS · #21 05-05-2006, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

By the way, where do you live that you get to drive at 85 mph? The freeways here are so congested that even 65 mph is not even a possibility most of the time.

Texas. Open highways lots of places.

A foundational question would be - what's wrong with the way it is now? The market dictates the wages, the illegals are content with making more money here than they make at home, they come and go as they please, deportation is a joke. They don't pay income taxes, but they do pay sales tax. They get healthcare paid for by America. We get cheap labor to help our economy. No employers are getting majorly fined for breaking the law. It's been like this for the thirty years that I can remember, but now it's a national crisis. Why?

And I don't believe in that rich getting richer crap and the dissolving of the middle class. When rich get richer, what do they do? They expand their operations to make more money. Those expansions mean they need more people, more equipment. They hire more people and buy more equipment. Then that equipment company needs more people and equipment. So they hire more more people and buy more equipment. Then that company needs to expand their operations too. The lower classes get more work, which elevates their income - they reach middle classes.

200+ years this system has worked - it's made America an absolute powerhouse in a very short time. We are the world's leader. It works.

boneheaddoctor · #22 05-05-2006, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS

Texas. Open highways lots of places.

A foundational question would be - what's wrong with the way it is now? The market dictates the wages, the illegals are content with making more money here than they make at home, they come and go as they please, deportation is a joke. They don't pay income taxes, but they do pay sales tax. They get healthcare paid for by America. We get cheap labor to help our economy. No employers are getting majorly fined for breaking the law. It's been like this for the thirty years that I can remember, but now it's a national crisis. Why?

And I don't believe in that rich getting richer crap and the dissolving of the middle class. When rich get richer, what do they do? They expand their operations to make more money. Those expansions mean they need more people, more equipment. They hire more people and buy more equipment. Then that equipment company needs more people and equipment. So they hire more more people and buy more equipment. Then that company needs to expand their operations too. The lower classes get more work, which elevates their income - they reach middle classes.

200+ years this system has worked - it's made America an absolute powerhouse in a very short time. We are the world's leader. It works.

really...there was a lot of poverty in the early 1900's when the fat cats hired thugs to beat or kill anyone who tried to organize for better working conditions are reasonible pay. I recomend you read up on the beginings of unions.

And the fact that companies are trying to justify ever larger wasteful pay and benifit packages to CEO's and boards of directors whiel shafting the people actually earning that money for the companies in pay , benifits and job security.

Rape working man to reward the people that steal the companies riches to line their own pockets.

Jim B. · #23 05-05-2006, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

She is very bright (and very pretty) which makes it a pleasure to talk to her.

.

Yeah that's ALWAYS true!!! (Absolutamente, creo lo que si, Cada vez lo mismo)

Agree with your other points. You nailed it.

unkl300d · #24 05-06-2006, 01:46 AM

Well, I have posted my opinions on this issue in other threads.

Another new facet to consider is the organized front that rallys with the mentalities of extreme 'activists'.
For example: Concepts such as 'the people are not crossing the border, the border crossed over them'.
This diabtribe is explained as certain territories (California, Texas) once belonged to Mexico and the gringos 'stole' it. {Mexico was in fact torn by its own political chaos and fractured economy. The result of ther own devils}Therefore, the PO have a certain
right to freely exist in those territories. Furthermore, the idealized claim is made that the indigenous people (generalized term but meant to focus on Aztecs, etc.) had free and open trade routes across all the territories.

Well, there is nostalgic idealism here and baloney.
No mention is made of the fact that the Aztecs and Incas were 'colonialist' and imperialist socities. They expanded the empire over the carcasses of other tribes. Blood and guts politics. They had slaves also.

Trade routes at a price. Tithing the imperial monarch!

The sad thing is that these idealised claims do seem to fall on credulous and ignorant ears. All to the advantage and strategy of extremist groups.
The superior race. La Raza. The up and coming imperialists, Hugo Chavez etc..

The underlying premise? The United States is the bane and culprit of all woes.
Unity under the recognition of a common foe.

No mention is made of the Spanish by the way. How do the mixed bloods get distilled in this 'indigenous inherent right to the land' diatribe.?
The Spanish conquistadors are also mal-thought of as being the root cause of the woes of Mexico and other Latin American countries.
Without going into the conflicts and historical negative influences that the Spanish did have in Latin America, the bottom line is that the Spanish were just another 'tribe' that out powered the dominant 'tribe' which had the empire at that time. Blood and guts politics no less.

Indeed, Mexico does need to reform their own government and society.
It is not up to outsiders to make amends and give sanctions.
I mention Mexico because accidentally, they are the predominant representatives of illegal aliens.
The United Stes is not perfect and historically has not been saintly. Just another player in world history and the macabre 'way of the world'.

Todays marching flag wavers will be tomorrows registered card carrying extremist group members making deals with established groups that are indeed anti-USA. That will be the foremost catastrophe of amnesty. Fodder for unrest. Votes for the whore politicians.
Oh yes, the politicians...... they should have rights...haha.

POS · #25 05-06-2006, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

Rape working man to reward the people that steal the companies riches to line their own pockets.

Wow - scares me that you believe that.

"Rape working man?" - You mean hire honest hardworking people so they can provide a security, education, and a better life for thier families? Those rich bastards.

"Steal the companies?" - How do you steal a company? Most CEOs earn their way to the top and do a good job, they're not born into it.

"Line thier own pockets?" - You mean so those rich bastards can buy Mercedes Benzes made in Georgia by hard-working Americans? So those Georgians can provide security, education, and a better life for their families? Damn rich bastards.

Lebenz · #26 05-06-2006, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

Illegal immigration creates...

Thanks for the detailed response. I had no idea you had such strong feelings on this topic. Rather than go point by point I’m going to touch on only a few topics you mentioned.

First, I’m no fan of this trend. While I appreciate the willingness of people to try for a better life than they have or had, there are right and wrong ways to pursue it. The trend of illegal aliens (or IA for short) changes the nature of the community. The higher percentage of discounted wage earners the more the trend accelerates. Now, where were we? Oh yes:

Quote:

Illegal immigration creates a permanent underclass of mostly Hispanic individuals. There may be other groups, but Hispanics are the most visible.

While this is correct, I think you are regarding the issue on a too narrow basis. Capitalism creates a permanent underclass. Now don’t get your short hairs up as this is not an overt attack on capitalism. The underclass is represented by folks who circumstances demand have less of everything. In CA, some of this underclass happens to be represented by IA. In the not too distant past, the prominent under class consisted primarily or folk of different ethnic decent. Believe it or not, every large community in this country has not only an underclass, but a large one.

The underclass exists as a pawn due to the demand to save $$. It is a very real element of human nature. The pawn is a victim of the system under which it exists, and I’m sure you are aware that some of the biggest companies are the most willing to employ IA. But it is not their exclusive purview, as there are a lot of potential employers, numbering into the millions, who are looking to add value to their service or product. Some markets, so “they” say, would be crippled by expense without IA. True or not, that perception is the reason the process continues.

Quote:

Well, I care because as long as I am a Hispanic, many will see me and my children as nothing but fruit pickers, toilet scrubbers or nannies. They assume all Hispanics are the same. That is why it is important to me that all Hispanics do well.

What one perceives of the world around them is largely a reflection of one’s sensitivities. As an example, when on the road, I rarely miss another MB vehicle, but I don’t notice every one of the broader arena of cars. There are too many. By the same token, what any of us see in the community is rightfully a reflection of our sensitivities.

Consider the larger components of our civilization: currently, at best, about half the kids that go to school finish high school. Consider the larger implications of this for our country. That means that half the folk are not going to have the chance of being anything but fruit pickers, toilet scrubbers and nannies. Half the population. Talk about an underclass. IA, and I don’t intend to trivialize it at all, but IA is only another manifestation of that problem.

Quote:

And as to your question regarding the law --I would love to prosecute some of these employers and seize their assets. Have them do the perp walk, like soem of the guys from Enron, et al.

Those are federal laws and why the Feds (Dems and Republicans) sit back and do nothing is a lasting indictment of their hipocrisy and myopia.

So…literally there is nothing the state can do?

mikemover · #27 05-06-2006, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS

"Line thier own pockets?" - You mean so those rich bastards can buy Mercedes Benzes made in Georgia by hard-working Americans? So those Georgians can provide security, education, and a better life for their families? Damn rich bastards.

Actually, the ML is made in Alabama.

Mike

mikemover · #28 05-06-2006, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unkl300d

Well, I have posted my opinions on this issue in other threads.

Another new facet to consider is the organized front that rallys with the mentalities of extreme 'activists'.
For example: Concepts such as 'the people are not crossing the border, the border crossed over them'.
This diabtribe is explained as certain territories (California, Texas) once belonged to Mexico and the gringos 'stole' it. {Mexico was in fact torn by its own political chaos and fractured economy. The result of ther own devils}Therefore, the PO have a certain
right to freely exist in those territories. Furthermore, the idealized claim is made that the indigenous people (generalized term but meant to focus on Aztecs, etc.) had free and open trade routes across all the territories.

Well, there is nostalgic idealism here and baloney.
No mention is made of the fact that the Aztecs and Incas were 'colonialist' and imperialist socities. They expanded the empire over the carcasses of other tribes. Blood and guts politics. They had slaves also.

Trade routes at a price. Tithing the imperial monarch!

The sad thing is that these idealised claims do seem to fall on credulous and ignorant ears. All to the advantage and strategy of extremist groups.
The superior race. La Raza. The up and coming imperialists, Hugo Chavez etc..

The underlying premise? The United States is the bane and culprit of all woes.
Unity under the recognition of a common foe.

No mention is made of the Spanish by the way. How do the mixed bloods get distilled in this 'indigenous inherent right to the land' diatribe.?
The Spanish conquistadors are also mal-thought of as being the root cause of the woes of Mexico and other Latin American countries.
Without going into the conflicts and historical negative influences that the Spanish did have in Latin America, the bottom line is that the Spanish were just another 'tribe' that out powered the dominant 'tribe' which had the empire at that time. Blood and guts politics no less.

Indeed, Mexico does need to reform their own government and society.
It is not up to outsiders to make amends and give sanctions.
I mention Mexico because accidentally, they are the predominant representatives of illegal aliens.
The United Stes is not perfect and historically has not been saintly. Just another player in world history and the macabre 'way of the world'.

Todays marching flag wavers will be tomorrows registered card carrying extremist group members making deals with established groups that are indeed anti-USA. That will be the foremost catastrophe of amnesty. Fodder for unrest. Votes for the whore politicians.
Oh yes, the politicians...... they should have rights...haha.

Excellent post, excellent points all around.

As is the case with MANY issues currently before us... they are blaming the US for their woes, instead of looking inward and cleaning up their own mess.

Mike

boneheaddoctor · #29 05-06-2006, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS

Wow - scares me that you believe that.

"Rape working man?" - You mean hire honest hardworking people so they can provide a security, education, and a better life for thier families? Those rich bastards.

"Steal the companies?" - How do you steal a company? Most CEOs earn their way to the top and do a good job, they're not born into it.

"Line thier own pockets?" - You mean so those rich bastards can buy Mercedes Benzes made in Georgia by hard-working Americans? So those Georgians can provide security, education, and a better life for their families? Damn rich bastards.

really. Explain to me whay these fat cats need fully paid medical and other stuff when they collect millions in bonuses irregadless if the company makes or loses billions of dollars. Yet they constantly try to take money and benifits away from those least able to afford to pay for them out of pocket.

No way is that right, or fair to either the people who actually earn the money a company makes....or to the share holders who never get asked if they want to piss away profits on already overpaid self righteous do nothings.

Yes that is line their own pockets...the old boys club in the board of directors and the upper management who give themselves stupid and overly generoud bonuses even while taking away needed benifits from the actual workers. Or worse sending more american jobs offshore.

You sound like you are one of those corporate rapists, and not a worker who has had his pension taken away...his benifits slashed to save money to give to an overpaid CEO for doing nothing worthy of it.

POS · #30 05-06-2006, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

You sound like you are one of those corporate rapists, and not a worker who has had his pension taken away...his benifits slashed to save money to give to an overpaid CEO for doing nothing worthy of it.

I own a small company that employs 11 people who all get treated fairly and with respect. I have no turnover.

But, BINGO - you hit the nail on the head for me. You take what you think you know, you assume it's true, then you project that onto other people as if it's true. You just did that to me when you called me a corporate rapist and you don't know anything about me. Just like you don't know anything about the CEOs you berate. As long as you keep blaming everyone else for what's wrong in the world, you'll be stuck at the bottom - not held down by others, but kept there by your own hand.

I hope you can get over the blaming and rise above it - I really do.