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  #1  
Old 07-06-2006, 10:44 PM
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GM foodfight

Here's how I see it, dealing primarily with row crops.

First, the positives.

1. From what we know of the emerging science, science is capable (or will be capable) of engineering the production of almost any organic molecule.

2. Resistance to herbicides can be introduced to plants.

3. Insect anti-feedant chemicals can be introduced into any plant genome.

4. The nutritional value, pest resistance, pesticide resistance, and productivity of GM plants are all subject to manipulation for the betterment of humanity.

5. These qualities can be introduced at a scale that allows for capitalistic return on investment.

On the negative side.

1. Industrial ag has reduced the genetic variability of the 7 primary food crops to a very small number of lines. As GM increases, genetic diversity will decrease as farmers who use these crops out-compete traditional farm seed sources.

2. How much genetic manipulation is necessary for a patent? I don't know, but I can imagine that a small number of genes is patentable. What happens when those gene sequences, though outcrossing, get into wild stock?

3. Crops of industrial ag have hybrid breakdown in the F2 and F3 generations through recombination. This has resulted in dramatic decreases in production in 3rd world farms where seed is collected from one crop and planted in the next. Starvation has resulted from hybrid breakdown in some few countries. This will result will increase dramatically if recessive, deleterious genes are introduced to the genome to prevent holding seed from year to year.

My opinion:

Patenting life is wrong. Therefore, deriving profit from patented life is wrong.

What do you think?

Bot

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  #2  
Old 07-06-2006, 11:21 PM
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I did that until about 2-3 decades ago. Since then I chose to MoveOn to a fermenter and homebrewing beer.

If weed was legal I'd probably grow my own. In my experience there is absolutely nothing wrong with it except you can lose your house, family, career, savings and freedom.

I think the gov should get out of people's lives. I also think they should get out of the GM racket and let the market run its course instead of acting as enforcers in a protections racket.

B
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:02 AM
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Bot, I'm not surprised to see this thread this morning!

Patenting life is wrong - I agree with that. There's something that just doesn't seem right about it.

I certainly also agree with the thoughts expressed about America's #1 cash crop.

About the gov regulating the GM industry - I don't know enough about this to have a strong opinion either way, but aren't there some dangers inherent in GM crops? Not so much via human consumption but to insects. I remember reading something about a certain type of GM corn that monarch butterflies ate and then subsequently died.

I'm a pretty avid gardener and I know that if certain insect species were to be killed off or seriously reduced in number, it could have wide-ranging ramifications.

GM foods have a lot of potential for good but some potential for bad, too. Isn't some regulation warranted?
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Old 07-07-2006, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
Patenting life is wrong. Therefore, deriving profit from patented life is wrong.
I disagree. However, if you don't allow it then there is no profit and all your positives will not happen either.
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  #5  
Old 07-07-2006, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by aklim
I disagree. However, if you don't allow it then there is no profit and all your positives will not happen either.
An eloquent argument escapes me at the moment, but patenting life seems like a slippery slope sort of thing to me. It may be appropriate in some cases but wildly inappropriate in others. In any event it gives me pause.

Free market systems have proven remarkably effective, but I'm not sure such a system is the best thing in this case.
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Old 07-07-2006, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Maroon 300D
An eloquent argument escapes me at the moment, but patenting life seems like a slippery slope sort of thing to me. It may be appropriate in some cases but wildly inappropriate in others. In any event it gives me pause.

Free market systems have proven remarkably effective, but I'm not sure such a system is the best thing in this case.
OK. How will you encourage me to bury my head in research and experiments which take up my valuable time without a financial profit? A pat on the back is good but that doesn't pay the bills.
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Old 07-07-2006, 12:13 PM
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Money rules. Read a story about a farmer that had been saving and refining his seed stash for years. When Monsanto came into his area with some FrankenCorn it's pollen mixed with his crop. The Monsanto Corn needs to be bought yearly from them as saved seed won't germinate and took over his his crop creating another new customer.
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  #8  
Old 07-07-2006, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by aklim
OK. How will you encourage me to bury my head in research and experiments which take up my valuable time without a financial profit? A pat on the back is good but that doesn't pay the bills.
That's not always the most important thing. Possible advances must be weighed against other factors.

And in this case, non-GM food (or food modified in the traditional ways, at any rate) has been working just fine since the dawn of time.
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  #9  
Old 07-07-2006, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crash9
Money rules. Read a story about a farmer that had been saving and refining his seed stash for years. When Monsanto came into his area with some FrankenCorn it's pollen mixed with his crop. The Monsanto Corn needs to be bought yearly from them as saved seed won't germinate and took over his his crop creating another new customer.
I believe Monsanto won that case. It was in Canada if we're talking about the same thing.
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  #10  
Old 07-07-2006, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Maroon 300D
That's not always the most important thing. Possible advances must be weighed against other factors.

And in this case, non-GM food (or food modified in the traditional ways, at any rate) has been working just fine since the dawn of time.
OK. How will you entice researchers and research then? Tell a company you will give them a nice shiny plaque to hang on the wall?

Yes it has. However, a lot of things have been done the traditional way since the dawn of time too. Times change and so do things. That is kinda like saying "My father was a carpenter and his father before him and so on for 10 generations. Therefore I will be a carpenter too."
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  #11  
Old 07-07-2006, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maroon 300D
Bot, I'm not surprised to see this thread this morning!

Patenting life is wrong - I agree with that. There's something that just doesn't seem right about it.

I certainly also agree with the thoughts expressed about America's #1 cash crop.

About the gov regulating the GM industry - I don't know enough about this to have a strong opinion either way, but aren't there some dangers inherent in GM crops? Not so much via human consumption but to insects. I remember reading something about a certain type of GM corn that monarch butterflies ate and then subsequently died.

I'm a pretty avid gardener and I know that if certain insect species were to be killed off or seriously reduced in number, it could have wide-ranging ramifications.

GM foods have a lot of potential for good but some potential for bad, too. Isn't some regulation warranted?
The allegations of an effect of genes jumping from a GM crop plant to milkweed were popular in the 1990's. I believe the crop was maize. Subsequent, detailed scientific analysis failed to substantiate the initial results.

To me, the greatest threat of GM plants is lowering the genetic diversity of the food crops. Back in the 1960's a highly productive hybrid maize was introduced. It produced so abundantly that for the next several years farmers around the USA planted that particular hybrid to the exclusion of others. Well, it turned out that a little known pathogen was able to take advantage of that particular hybrid and virtually wiped-out that hybrid corn crop throughout the USA. Southern Corn Blight.

By lowering the genetic diversity in crop plants we risk the same phenomenon of line-breeding seen in animals like hip displasia, etc.

Humanity is dependent on 7 grains, each of which is increasingly subjected to line breeding and now, GM breeding. This means that the major food source of the planet is exhibiting increasing dependence on human culture for its survival. That okay, just so long as we don't screw-up.

B
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  #12  
Old 07-07-2006, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aklim
OK. How will you entice researchers and research then? Tell a company you will give them a nice shiny plaque to hang on the wall?

Yes it has. However, a lot of things have been done the traditional way since the dawn of time too. Times change and so do things. That is kinda like saying "My father was a carpenter and his father before him and so on for 10 generations. Therefore I will be a carpenter too."
Well I'm not saying we should forget about GM foods. They have great potential and I think we'd be foolish to just stop doing research in this area.

I will say it again, though, enticing researchers to make advances may not be the most important thing here. In fact, it could lead to the kind of gene pool narrowing that Bot alluded to in the initial post. In that way it may be similar to diabetes research. I know that many people feel the pharmaceutical industry has no incentive to find a cure, as it's more profitable to come out with new medications and devices every once in a while.
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Old 07-07-2006, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst
The allegations of an effect of genes jumping from a GM crop plant to milkweed were popular in the 1990's. I believe the crop was maize. Subsequent, detailed scientific analysis failed to substantiate the initial results.

To me, the greatest threat of GM plants is lowering the genetic diversity of the food crops. Back in the 1960's a highly productive hybrid maize was introduced. It produced so abundantly that for the next several years farmers around the USA planted that particular hybrid to the exclusion of others. Well, it turned out that a little known pathogen was able to take advantage of that particular hybrid and virtually wiped-out that hybrid corn crop throughout the USA. Southern Corn Blight.

By lowering the genetic diversity in crop plants we risk the same phenomenon of line-breeding seen in animals like hip displasia, etc.

Humanity is dependent on 7 grains, each of which is increasingly subjected to line breeding and now, GM breeding. This means that the major food source of the planet is exhibiting increasing dependence on human culture for its survival. That okay, just so long as we don't screw-up.

B
So there's no evidence that the GM corn crop had any effect on those monarchs? I didn't realize that.
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  #14  
Old 07-07-2006, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Maroon 300D
So there's no evidence that the GM corn crop had any effect on those monarchs? I didn't realize that.
I'm unsurprised that you didn't know. The press and environmentalists made a HUGE deal out of the preliminary results. It took a couple of years to conduct difinitive research. By then, the impact was ingrained in the mind and the press and enviros had moved on to new issues. That is par.

Speaking of monarch butterflies, remember when destruction of the forest habitat in Mexico was going to cause extinction of the monarch? Again, the wackoes and their lackies in the press overstated the potential for disaster and failed to note the lack of disaster when it didn't occur. I'm not saying that the monarch habitat wasn't worth saving, far from that. I am increasingly preservationist as I see habitat destruction and the loss of genetic diversity as twin rails running our train to hell in a handbasket (gawd, I love mixing metaphors!). I just don't like abuse of science to engineer desired outcomes.
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Old 07-07-2006, 02:44 PM
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Yes, as a society we have an awfully short attention....what was I talking about again?

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