General's Abizaid and Pace used the civil war word in the presence of Rumsfeld.

About a year ago, someone gave me grief for saying that civil war in Iraq was breaking out. Bush and co. have denied it for as long as they could.

Iraq: UK ambassador's bleak view.

100 Iraqis a day are being killed. That's 36,500 a year. Their population is about 1/10th ours. Imagine if 365,000 Americans a year were dying at each others' hands on our soil? Would we say "on the verge of civil war?"

The story about the bomb being left in the bleachers at a soocer field used by children seems like a pretty serious omen pointing towards civil war.

Powell was right: you break it, you own it.


An Iraqi father mourns the death of his two sons killed by
an explosion at a soccer field on Wednesday in Baghdad.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

So if the pangs of Guilt are tearing at you ,Suffer in peace and repent at your leisure.

What does that poster (image) have to do with this thread or your statement?

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-Marty

1986 300E 220,000 miles+ transmission impossible
(Now waiting under a bridge in order to become one)

Reading your M103 duty cycle:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831799-post13.html
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/831807-post14.html

Anybody with half a brain already knows that Iraq is currently into a civil war, and the presence of 500K U.S. troops is not going to change that outcome.

The only thing one must ask is when this administration is going to finally realize this fact?

Personally, I'm not expecting any change of policy until 2008.

it is indeed a mess. no good solution. many parallels to viet nam. we will stay til the american people demand we leave.

my dad always said dont start something unless you are sure you can finish it.

tom w

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

What price loss of life???

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About a year ago you were a year premature in your hopeful prognostication. According to the generals you almost quote accurately, you may still be premature.

B

Hopeful?! Yeah, I'm hoping our gubmint will devote $Half a $Trillion or more to an adventure that leaves us less secure in the world with all sorts of unknown costs ahead.

I smelled disaster in this thing in fall '02 when Bush and supporting cast spoke of little other than the need to take out Saddam, mushroom clouds, WMD, etc.

Once more, a rate of 36,500 sectarian deaths a year. This is not a high spirited primary election.

...the generals you almost quote accurately...

?!? What was inaccurate?

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

I wonder whether GWB.........or Botnst........will be the last man standing with regard to instituting democracy in Iraq..........???

Anybody want to make a bet.............???

That would be a close call.

If I'm HOPEFUL about anything it's that this disaster will occasion a re-examination of the notion that what any crisis is lacking is the application of US military might.

There will be times when it's unavoidable. It is not however, a tool that can be wielded deftly, like a surgeon's scalpel.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

As you are fully aware..........history repeats itself. Sure, we'll go into a slightly isolationist period where we take a breather from the rest of the world and focus on defense of the homeland..........and then..........in another 20 years..........another DB like GWB will be elected and the same thing will happen yet again............

hey i am with you on this. my point being it is something we shouldnt have started.

tom w

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Being old enough and having lived through a lot of "this" I can assure you that the notion of "US Military might" is an Oxymoron....
What know one in the US,especially those foolish enough to forget even Somalia,realised or remembered was,that Iran and Iraq fought a war in which 5 million people lost their lives.
A friend of mine fought for the iranians as a teenager,and speaks of battles where 100,000 died in one day.
These numbers eclipse the First world war,Yet GWB insisted on invading Iraq with considering the simple fact thatThese are a War Hardened people who will never surrender to anything to do with the USA.
If you need to apportion blame don't blame the muslem extremeists,Don't blame Saddaam,blame yourselves for being too damn lazy by not taking notice of the wider world beyond your shores.
So while I may agree with your sentiment,I disagree with any "application of US military might".This aint some John Wayne or Bruce willis movie,that you can just turn off and come back to later when the mood strikes you...is it?

Let me explain....It is the USA and it's population who are Directly responsible for the carnage in Iraq and lebanon,because for various reasons as the Hammas and Hezbollah have repeatedly told the rest of the world,are not interested in the health and well being of the populations of Iran,Iraq,Lebanon ,Afghanistan,,Palestine,Somalia,Dafur,Sudan,Nigeria,Bosnia,Sebia,Albania, or even the prisoners held without Trial in Gitmo, because YOU elected GWB and Rice is merely his Token Black Woman who travels the world at vast expense making weak inane statements about not wanting cease fires because the alleged bad boys will win.
In the meantime your ally,my alleged homeland ,kills innocents and then uses spin to justify the stealing of Palestinan land and now lebanese land.*
Until the 'entire' USA grows a spine,there never will be peace in that area .

* which I might remind you are the ONLY TWO democratically elected Govenments in the area!!!!
No one elected the present Government of Israel,a land without defined borders, as that old fat Mossad general is still alive on a machine somewhere.

This adventure has been pretty successful if you can comprehend the big picture (you can't). What has happened to the US since 9/11? Hint:no attacks. You can argue the war hasn't gone exatcly as planned, show me one that has. How about 1 battle?

And the iraqis are not being killed at a RATE of 100/day. Your extrapolation is incorrect.

Oh and is youlisten to what the generals said, they said civil war is a possibility. Not a probability. And not likely.

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MB-less