Wal-Mart fuel...... 20 cents a gallon ? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

dkveuro · #1 08-10-2006, 01:53 AM

http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/08/news/companies/pluggedin_gunther.fortune/index.htm

http://www.e85fuel.com/information/mercedes.php

Check the other embedded links too.

You don't know what Ethanol is ? http://www.iowacorn.org/ethanol/ethanol_3b.html

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Carson357 · #2 08-10-2006, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkveuro

http://money.cnn.com/2006/08/08/news/companies/pluggedin_gunther.fortune/index.htm

http://www.e85fuel.com/information/mercedes.php

Check the other embedded links too.

You don't know what Ethanol is ? http://www.iowacorn.org/ethanol/ethanol_3b.html

.

what would or could happen if you ran the E85 in say a mid 80's 560?

dkveuro · #3 08-10-2006, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carson357

what would or could happen if you ran the E85 in say a mid 80's 560?

Good question.

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iwrock · #4 08-10-2006, 03:39 PM

Thats a problem. The ethanol actually eats away at the fuel system plumbing. E85 is super corrosive, and you must have your hoses and tank changed out to something that is E85 compliant.

If you stick E85 in there now, the rubber seal in the fuel system will just get eaten away.

Matt L · #5 08-10-2006, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carson357

what would or could happen if you ran the E85 in say a mid 80's 560?

If you have a carburator, you can probably jet it to deliver the proper mixture of E85. Electronic fuel injection may be able to be fooled. CIS would pose problems. But in all of these cases, you would the be forced to always use E85 unless you undid the changes.

A friend has a Ford 460 with a (big) carburator, and when E85 is finally more available here, I would like to tune it to run on the stuff. His milage is already total crap, but I think we could squeeze a few more HP out of the engine just by running E85, at the cost of a further loss of milage.

Emmerich · #6 08-10-2006, 10:20 PM

E85 has less energy than gasoline, you need more of it. Doesn't make sense since you could end up paying more for fuel and getting less out of the same volume.

A264172 · #7 08-10-2006, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emmerich

E85 has less energy than gasoline, you need more of it. Doesn't make sense since you could end up paying more for fuel and getting less out of the same volume.

It does provide a competitor for dino gas... something the world is sorely lacking nowabouts.

Matt L · #8 08-10-2006, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emmerich

E85 has less energy than gasoline, you need more of it. Doesn't make sense since you could end up paying more for fuel and getting less out of the same volume.

You need a bit more of it, but you can generate more power with the same engine on alcohol v. gasoline. And as production of alcohol increases, the price will decrease, as it does for everything except for limited resources like fossile fuels. The only losers are those who invest in oil fields.

Emmerich · #9 08-11-2006, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt L

You need a bit more of it, but you can generate more power with the same engine on alcohol v. gasoline. And as production of alcohol increases, the price will decrease, as it does for everything except for limited resources like fossile fuels. The only losers are those who invest in oil fields.

Your great grandchildren will be driving gasoline cars.

Ethanol has a cost factor MUCH greater than 1 and an energy factor less than 1 compared to gasoline. It is economically unsound at todays prices. The full cost of ethanol is not apparent, you have to input all the farming costs, which includes government subsidies to farmers.

Now you have to factor in the transport of ethanol. Corn is in the center of the country, the refineries are on the coasts. You can't transport ethanol through a pipeline because its hydroscopic so all you can do is go by truck or train and guess what they run on? Hint: diesel. So you burn a lot of fossil fuel in your effort to save fossil fuel.

The bottom line is not only are you shifting costs from you left pocket to your right pocket, they are increasing during the exchange.

Its the same as electric car proponents, you may not run on gas, but something was more than likely burned elsewhere to generate that electricity.

We are a consumption society and until our back is against the wall, we won't learn to conserve. We just enjoy our gluttony too much. And that gluttony is lifestyle, energy is just the fuel to run it.

Matt L · #10 08-11-2006, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emmerich

Your great grandchildren will be driving gasoline cars.

Ethanol has a cost factor MUCH greater than 1 and an energy factor less than 1 compared to gasoline. It is economically unsound at todays prices. The full cost of ethanol is not apparent, you have to input all the farming costs, which includes government subsidies to farmers.

Now you have to factor in the transport of ethanol. Corn is in the center of the country, the refineries are on the coasts. You can't transport ethanol through a pipeline because its hydroscopic so all you can do is go by truck or train and guess what they run on? Hint: diesel. So you burn a lot of fossil fuel in your effort to save fossil fuel.

The bottom line is not only are you shifting costs from you left pocket to your right pocket, they are increasing during the exchange.

Its the same as electric car proponents, you may not run on gas, but something was more than likely burned elsewhere to generate that electricity.

We are a consumption society and until our back is against the wall, we won't learn to conserve. We just enjoy our gluttony too much. And that gluttony is lifestyle, energy is just the fuel to run it.

Today, it may take more energy to produce ethanol than can be extracted. Or it may not. The figures on both sides are exaggerated. I'll wait and see what happens with this one. Note that they're making it in South America from sugar. Also, remember why I said I wanted to burn it. I think it would give power approaching that of race gas. Have you ever bought any race gas? That stuff isn't $3/gallon. Note that Saab has a mass-market flex-fuel vehicle on the market today that produces more power on E85 than gasoline. Others will follow.

Why are the refineries at the coasts, and what do they refine? Any connection here? I thought so. New ethanol plants are being built in the heartland.

Electric cars burn fuel, yes. But a massive electrical generator is at least twice as efficient as your gasoline engine in your car. So there is a huge potential gain here too, but some interests just won't admit it.

One way to conserve is to get where we're going while using less energy.

Come up with better arguments.

Emmerich · #11 08-11-2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt L

Today, it may take more energy to produce ethanol than can be extracted. Or it may not. The figures on both sides are exaggerated. I'll wait and see what happens with this one. Note that they're making it in South America from sugar. Also, remember why I said I wanted to burn it. I think it would give power approaching that of race gas. Have you ever bought any race gas? That stuff isn't $3/gallon. Note that Saab has a mass-market flex-fuel vehicle on the market today that produces more power on E85 than gasoline. Others will follow.

Why are the refineries at the coasts, and what do they refine? Any connection here? I thought so. New ethanol plants are being built in the heartland.

Electric cars burn fuel, yes. But a massive electrical generator is at least twice as efficient as your gasoline engine in your car. So there is a huge potential gain here too, but some interests just won't admit it.

One way to conserve is to get where we're going while using less energy.

Come up with better arguments.

Not sure where to start, how about your first sentence where you admit you have no idea what the facts are. You are proclaiming knowledge of a subject at the same time admitting you have no clue.

Refineries REFINE crude oil into gasoline. This is what cars burn. You mix ethanol with it. Do you know what ethanol is and why it is used? Its an oxygenator. It is meant to replace MTBE due to to environmental issues with MTBE and ground water. Refineries are usually near ports so crude can be brought in by ship. Corn is grown in the agricultural regions, mostly middle America. Putting an ethanol plant anywhere makes no difference, you either have to ship the feedstock (corn) to it or ship the ethanol to the refineries for mixing with gasoline.

And you have absolutely no idea how efficient an electrical generator is compared to my car, or at what scale those numbers might flip. You don't seem to comprehend the inefficiencies of electrical power transmission either. So you might want to have some sort of backup to your claims. AT least you admitted your lack of knowledge. Now if you can QUANTIFY your statement about how you think an electrical generator is twice as efficient as my car, I would be glad to hear it. Just to make things interesting, how many different types of generators do you think there are?

I can't tell if you are serious about conservation, or you just have a personal hangup against oil. Either way, it will be hard to generate much reepect for your opinion until you roll into work on your wooden wheeled bicycle.

Emmerich · #12 08-11-2006, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt L

Today, it may take more energy to produce ethanol than can be extracted. Or it may not. The figures on both sides are exaggerated. I'll wait and see what happens with this one. Note that they're making it in South America from sugar. Also, remember why I said I wanted to burn it. I think it would give power approaching that of race gas. Have you ever bought any race gas? That stuff isn't $3/gallon. Note that Saab has a mass-market flex-fuel vehicle on the market today that produces more power on E85 than gasoline. Others will follow.

Show me some published figures on power of these cars.

And using race gas is dumb. The only reason for race gas is engines that need higher octane. Do you know why octane is needed? Its to prevent pre-ignition in high compression engines. If you don't have one then buying that type of gas is stupid.

There is no doubt the future will create technologies that will work AND be economically feasible. Not today though.

Old300D · #13 08-11-2006, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emmerich

Show me some published figures on power of these cars.

And using race gas is dumb. The only reason for race gas is engines that need higher octane. Do you know why octane is needed? Its to prevent pre-ignition in high compression engines. If you don't have one then buying that type of gas is stupid.

There is no doubt the future will create technologies that will work AND be economically feasible. Not today though.

Race gas works great in turbocharged engines as well. My 280Z has a foctory 7.4:1 compression rato and running at 16psi boost really appreciates 103 octane. Modern turbo cars can compensate for octane, and get more power from higher octane fuel.

A264172 · #14 08-11-2006, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emmerich

...you could end up paying more for fuel and getting less out of the same volume.

Speaking of that are diesel and fuel oil any harder or less efficient to make than gas?

I heard a statment, that I didn't understand, in passing along those lines...

peragro · #15 08-11-2006, 07:30 PM

I kinda wondering how the claim can be made that ethanol produces more energy than gasoline? From what I remember in organic chemstry there's about 25% more Kcalories in gasoline than ethanol based on the same volume. This makes ethanol only about 75% of the power of gasoline.

Now, for efficient electrical transmission you need room temperature superconductors that haven't been invented yet.

Far as I know the most efficient hydrocarbon is still diesel, which is easier to refine than is gasoline.