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  #31  
Old 04-18-2001, 11:56 AM
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Ashman,
The old Lexus SC coupe is/was a Toyota Soarer. The IS is a Toyota Altezza. They ARE based on regular Japan market Toyotas.

And Infiniti and Acura models are the same as Japan home market models also...

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  #32  
Old 04-18-2001, 12:49 PM
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Who cares MB will soon become a dressed up Chrysler. Its sad that 115 years of M-B tradition will go down the drain. Toyota is a better car than Chrysler, and thus Lexus will soon be a much better car then Mercedes, or umm lets rephrase that Chrysler. I am so much saddened by MBZ's decision to do what they are about to do.
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  #33  
Old 04-18-2001, 02:29 PM
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ASHMAN & GLEN

I'm glad you guys so clearly stated what no had mentioned, that Lexus had taking copying to new and greater depths by copying themselves........

That is why Lexus/Toyota sucks!
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  #34  
Old 04-18-2001, 10:14 PM
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I own both a mercedes and a lexus and i think they are both great cars. i don't see why some of you are knocking on lexus. It looks good, handles excellent, and a nice interior. everybody copies everybody, mb just happens to be a trend setter at times. Of course the mb is the flagship of cars, but when it comes to getting it fixed, it costs an arm and a leg. can't we all get along?
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  #35  
Old 04-18-2001, 11:05 PM
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still no case...

"Car and Driver is not good comparison, they are biased!! They hate MERCEDES-Benz, and love lexus, bmw, etc."

Hmm who said that? What is better for comparision, the anecdotal stories with no hard evidence on this thread?

Let me recap the hard evidence that Lexus is at LEAST equal to MB, and in some categories higher. Once again I do not post this to win any races, merely to dispell the anecdotal attempts to disprove facts.

Check out my post at Traded in my Mercedes for Lexus....

Or I will post the main url's to the facts so you can look them up yourself.

http://www.Alldata.com
Very interesting TSB's (technical service bulletins), compare the different years and models.

http://www.Crashtest.com
Very interesting safety ratings from the government. Now dont tell me the government is biased like Car and driver, LOL.

http://www.peachparts.com
Thats right, do searches for climate control, valve seals, etc. Read up.

Even if Car and Driver is biased against Mercedes (which is just reaching at straws, yet like anything, its possible), Lexus still rated higher (much higher in some categories) than MB overall. Take it for what it is worth.

Do I personally like Lexus or MB better? I like them both. I just hate to see anecdotal, "my friend said this" type of stories passed off as evidence or fact.
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  #36  
Old 04-18-2001, 11:09 PM
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oh and...

"Who cares MB will soon become a dressed up Chrysler"

You have to love this post. Personally I think this is very true, of course this is only my opinion, not a fact I can prove.

Toyota copies and MB does not? hmm. If true so what? Are you going to not buy a superior or equal car because another more expensive car had the same feature earlier on? Thank god MB never copied some of the Acura suspension systems...hmm...
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  #37  
Old 04-19-2001, 01:15 AM
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because Tom Daschle (DEM) touts the Lexus
muffler as the net worth of Bush's tax
plan.
go figure
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  #38  
Old 04-19-2001, 02:37 AM
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Spinedoc,
Let me offer this analogy...
Say you walk into an upscale jewelry store whereupon you are presented with a genuine, ideal cut, 1 carat diamond solitaire. A product of mother nature and an expert craftsman. The stone is breathtaking...and so is the price.
A short time later, you happen upon another jewelry store. A sales person greets you at the door and invites you in for refreshment. You approach the counter and see row after row of brilliant stones. The sales person then begins to show you a perfect 1 carat diamond solitaire. It's exquisite, the most brilliant diamond you've ever seen. AND it's priced 10% less then the upscale store. The sales person goes on, "This is the product of 21st century technology. We manufacture these from our own select raw carbon. The end result is an absolutely perfect in every way diamond."
By every test, every measure, it's better then the real mccoy. Or is it? Which would you rather have?
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  #39  
Old 04-19-2001, 02:47 AM
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I just checked out that crash test sight and do not believe it is a very accurate way to test a car's crashworthiness. For example, it states that the 1995-1999 (wrong about the body style years) EUROPE side impact was Good. Meanwhile, the E class from 00-01 says it did excellent in the same category. But there were no structural differences to make this change. Side and head impact airbags were introduced (in 1998 I believe) into the E class somewhere between 95(?)-99; therefor, the information is somewhat inaccurate because it is not up to date with the years. For example, a 1999 E class has head and side impact airbags as does a 00 (or 01) E-class. What difference is there? NONE.

And just for the record, Spinedoc, the earlier GS and ES were only rated ACCEPTABLE overall, meanwhile the 202 C-class was rated excellent over, and the 124s (E320 and earlier 300Es) rated GOOD. Both better than those older Lexus', including the one you own. You should have done some researching of your own before your own 'evidence' was used against you!
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  #40  
Old 04-19-2001, 03:15 AM
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Hey Glen, those are some great looking Mercedes that you own. I really like your 95 E wagon. What a cool car to drive!
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  #41  
Old 04-19-2001, 03:30 AM
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Glen:
The wagon is nice, the '86 300E is very clean, but that has to be the greatest 190 I have ever seen! Maybe a little reminiscent of your 510? Same horizontal detail lines, angular shapes, and purposeful form-follows-function stance!
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  #42  
Old 04-19-2001, 03:39 AM
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Wow, Glen, that is one shweeeeeet 2.3-16v! Is it in immaculate condition? I bet it would look great with Euro headlights and colored bumpers. But it looks great just the way it is.
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  #43  
Old 04-19-2001, 10:29 AM
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My cars...

Thanks for the compliments guys!
I just bought the wagon for my wife, she's wanted one for a long time and I finally found what I think is a really nice one. With two kids, we needed a slightly larger family car and the wagon is the obvious choice. It has 68,xxx miles. The M104 engine is so much more powerful then the old M103, even with the extra weight of the wagon and autobox, it has good pickup.
The 190E is my 'baby.' I had wanted one since the early 1980's when I first saw a picture in a magazine. I found this one just over four years ago, it's in REALLY nice condition, it's hard to believe it's a 14 yead old car with 140,xxx miles.
The 300E is sort of the 'beater' car. I bought it 5 years ago when I was first starting to look at 190E 16V's seriously again. I just sort of stumbled on it and decided to buy it because of it's rarity. It had 180,000 miles at the time and needed alot of little things. It's been our primary family car and now has about 260,000 miles but it's getting a little tired and will soon be retired. I'm struggling with the idea of finding another early 300E to swap the manual transmission into and building my 'dream' W124 with 500E flares and bodywork or just biting the bullet and getting a real 500E to begin with. The conflict is that I love manual transmissions! Also, I like the lighter, nimble feel of the 6-cylinder cars...

John: Yes, the 16V is a bit reminiscent of my old 510 :-) Only better in every way!

Cossie: Euro lights are on the list!

Ben: Thanks! I wasn't sure I'd like the wagon but it turns out that I do. It drives great!
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  #44  
Old 04-19-2001, 04:33 PM
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I merely like to point out that mercedes cars still look up to date after 10 years, and people still question as to how old the cars are because they still look so new.

The lexus changes its designs just like every other japanese and american car manufacturer so often, like every 2 - 3 years, that you can always tell an old one from a new one in an instant.

This consistant updating of their cars looks, instantly makes their previous models drop in value by large amounts.

a 20 year old mercedes still looks like it could be sold as a new car today. can you say the same for any car company that updates its models every couple of years?

The reason they update every couple of years is because their designs become outdated and look old after a few years.

Personally I have nothing against someoen buying and owning a lexus if thats what they want, but for me, my opinion is that its just an overpriced toyota with leather interior and wheels instead of hub cabs. My opinion has nothing to do with it not being a mercedes, it has to do with it being an over priced toyota.

Alon
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  #45  
Old 04-19-2001, 06:49 PM
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"evidence" still in effect.

Klasse: Repeated for your edification.

MB 300E 1986-1995 Rating
Injuries---Acceptable
Death Rate-Excellent
Weight-----Good
Overall----Good

Lexus ES300 1992-1996
Injuries---Acceptable
Deathrate--Excellent
Weight-----Good
Overall----Acceptable

Good versus Acceptable is a very fine line. Yes the MB edges the Lexus out in these ratings, and yes you should yourself read the "evidence" a bit more closely. In fact there is a section that describes the ratings and what they mean specifically. I will let you find that section yourself.

In terms of accident safety the size of the auto, the difference in closing speeds, and the specific vectors are what determines a cars quality in a crash. Also the more you increase crash times, via things like crumple zones, the less damage to the occupant. Other things to take into account include how much "ramping", or lumbar rising an occupant has, the type, position and elasticity of the head rest, the elasticity or stiffness of the seat back itself, etc etc. I can put up formulas if you want, as I testify to this in court several times a year.

Most of the studies that are NOT funded by the specific auto company demonstrate that equal sized cars of similar years, similar closing speeds, and equal vectors tend to have very similar occupant injuries. I can also post numerous studies, as I have a very large stack of references on the subject. The 2 cars that actually stand out as out of the ordinary, or ahead of the pack are the Volvo and the BMW, statistically that is.

Point is that the margin between Lexus and MB is very close. Not the "Lexus sucks, MB rocks" crap that is spouted all the time. A more reasonable text might read "MB is great, Lexus is very good".


Glen: Which diamond would I choose? Well just like the MB and Lexus, both diamonds will age the same and cause the wearer less damage in case of accident. But the analogy is flawed. Was MB the first car? Is MB a natural event?

Take pride in your car, just dont be elitist about it. Offer up evidence about the safety, wearability, etc of your car, just dont get ugly and make it personal.

Oh and by the way, it was not Car and Driver that I was talking about in my previous post. Actually the current Consumer Report rates all cars back to the early 90's. Lexus gets much higher marks than MB, including a perfect score for the 2001 ES300. Makes for a good read, even though I am sure someone will say that Consumer Reports is biased also.

Bottom line...Its not a race. Neither car is necessarily better or worse. They each have their high points and low points. They each have their staunchest supporters and their worst enemies. But anecdotes and stories make poor evidence, especially when I hear the "Lexus sucks, MB is the best" cry.

"Dressed up Chrysler", god that still kills me...


[Edited by spinedoc on 04-19-2001 at 06:54 PM]

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