Anyone ever replace a section of clay sewer pipe?
 

Make a long story short...

I'm not gonna replace the whole run just the broken section... then buy the F'n insurance for $5 a month.

I am thinking of useing clay since I wont be replacing the whole length of pipe to the main and that would be consistant material if I go trenchless at some point in the future... also cameras would see only clay pipe as I am doing this al la Robert De Niro in 'Brazil'...

Any tips, tricks in connecting the sections together? How much gravel, how deep under and high above the pipe...? ...?

...needle in a haystack...
 

Started digging last Sunday morning with an Electric jack hammer and a lot of anxiety about where the pipe ran mystery, but all in all felt pretty good about my best guesstimating. Took out a 12"² piece of the previously unknown 4" concrete pad under my asphalt and burried under it, dead center, was a 4" clay pipe that ran verticaly down to the main. :bulb:

The place where the dousing indicated water appears to have no pipe but most likely is the path of the run off from the break... btw.

Replacing some broken sections is pretty cut and dry as opposed to laying an entire run. Hopefully your is a straight run no branches. I referenced the National Clay Pipe Institute, they have everything you need to know to becoming the best ditch digger and pipe layer in town, Line and Grade, connections, trench widths, bedding. Anyways they are at ncpi.org;)

no, i leave those things for the professionals.

:D I didn't feel very professional while doing it. In fact maybe the opposite.

Ouch, jackhammers. You do have a project. I learned the grass is always greener near the break.

if nothing leaked then consider yourself a professional...:gorgeous:

Yeah, it seems pretty well covered here:
http://www.ncpi.org/installhand.htm
Thanks for the tip.

P.S. By the end of reading the documents I am feeling an uncontrolable desire to install a manhole :silly:

Does Home Depot rent the miniature backhoe's there? Could save your back, not to mention having some fun.

My driveway is about 40' long and if I were doing the whole line I would go for a mini excavator 2 day $435 rental including tax that I found through an insider. As it stands I am 60% dug by hand already and down to the pipe. Once your in the hole it only gets easier. Fingers crossed.

Never replace clay with clay you can mend then section with PVC.

Do you know how 'trenchless' works?

I don't, but thought I heard they break up the old pipe as they insert the liner and was thinking that would be a 'possible obstacle'. Also want to restore the function in a way that looks as 'original' (via camera etc.) as possible. So there would be little evidence of the connection being made... estheicly from a governing bodies perspective.

By trenchless, do you mean something like insituform?

There's an easier explanation. Dowsing is a scam, and even the dowsers can't admit it to themselves; that is, they really believe that it works.

It doesn't work. They rely on their senses to see where the pipes (or underground aquifers) might run, and unconsciousely move the rods there.

Cool I had no idea dowsers had xray vision. Do you think they can see you panties?
I watched a worker from Denver water use dowsing to find a broken water main. It was exactly where he marked the spot.

Found this:

How it Works
Roto-Rooter's trenchless excavation technology uses advanced equipment to enter the ground via two small access pits, approximately three four feet by four feet square. Using the broken sewer line as a guide, Roto-Rooter's hydraulic pipe-bursting machinery pulls full-sized, seamless replacement pipe through the old pipe's path while breaking up the old damaged pipe in the process. Once the job is completed, the entrance and exit pits can be quickly refilled, leaving little or no evidence of activity. The manufacturer claims the new heavy-duty polyethylene pipe has a life expectancy of up to one hundred years. And since the pipe is seamless, it is impervious to leaks or root intrusion. The entire process goes on below ground leaving almost everything on the surface undisturbed. Roto-Rooter can replace pipes of varying sizes using this revolutionary and versatile equipment. Similar to the pipe-bursting technique described above, Roto-Rooter also utilizes a process called "trenchless pipe re-lining." Pipe re-lining can thread a new inner skin into damaged underground pipes, sealing cracks and creating a smooth new inner wall that will last for decades. Like the aforementioned pipe bursting technique, the pipe re-lining equipment is very non-invasive and requires only a couple of small pits to gain access to the damaged pipes below ground. The re-lining process is particularly useful for repairing damaged pipes encased in concrete slabs.

Although cool stuff/technology, like an ignition module for an E420, it is not cheap.

I got a quote from a company that did trenchless that was $2000.00 less than the company that quoted with a trench... + less resurfacing afterward. (neither quote included resurfacing) Hardly a double blind study though, depends on who's doing the quoting.

I'm interested in the trenchless because I have a rental property build in 1890 and the sewer line is under a seven car garage all the way to the alley. If the line ever comes a cropper, I'll be looking for some kind of trenchless system as opposed to tearing down the garage.

Replacing sewer pipe is not rocket science, if you can put pipes together and know what a level looks like its not too hard.

Case 580
Hole
Pipe
Fill
Done

the trenchless pipe sounds interesting. what is the cost?

tom w

The one quote I got was 3600-3800 for less than 50'... not sure if more than 50' involves more holes or not, or how firm the quote was as I had pretty much decided I could get in there and find it myself.

kindof expensive.

but if it saved the garage it would be a good deal.

on my other office building the sewer ran under a parking lot that was 8" thick concrete with steel rebar. and of course it was clay and of course it was partly collapsed and so every few years i had to have it jetted out. tearing out the concrete was cost prohibitive. i also would have had to set a manhole in the alley. so the jetting every so often seemed a bargain.

tom w

Just watch out for other buried utilities,like gas and electrical/telephone.Bed the pipe in 3/4" clear fractured rock and tamp it in place with a shovel ,top it with a foot of rock and it won't settle. You also can buy rubber adaptor couplings to make the repair with pvc pipe , the pipe burster should go right through it no problem. A simple repair like this shouldn't need inspection.
Good luck

Got er.
Trench ended up going 15 more feet instead of the five I anticipated.
The break was at the edge of the house.
the last 10 feet (all 4" clay) seemed askew so I replaced that length with PVC.

One of the rubber connectors (a 4" plastic to 6"clay type) that I used to connect to the large flange end of a 6" clay to 4" clay connector didn't want to seal well (due to the ribs on the outside of the flange I think).
I packed it full of plumbers putty (between the clay and the rubber and it seems to be ok. I'm going to leave it exposed till next weekend so I can monitor it for soundness before I back fill.

Thanks for the input.

i think i would have used silicone.

it will cure up and the plumbers putty will not.

tom w

We use a material at work (I work for a civil contractor) called denso tape, it like burlap strips impregnated with petroleum jelly. Plumber's putty and silicone belong above the ground.

will silicone deteriorate underground?

tom w

I'd be inclined to use epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth for this kind of repair. I've repaired drain pipes (above ground) with epoxy and they've been holding for 10 years.
Isn't Pam Anderson a testament to the long term durability of silicone?

Ferncos will never create an air tight seal unless the sewer is a force main the silicone or whatever won't mean a hill of beans.

You guys are giving me some ideas...

...any opinions about epoxying inside the gap between the fernco and the clay... then epoxying around the edge then wrapping the hose clamps in the vasoline tape?

Or is there some legitimate way to deal with this connection?

Perhaps I copuld backfill with epoxy...

Any type of material on the Fernco may shorten its life, a sewer pipe is not like your water pipe and does not need the pressure type fitting to work. If you installed the replacement pipe properly gravity will the the rest. Think about how clay pipe goes together, a light seal and some grease to help it slide in and thats all that is to it.

We test gravity sanitary at 3 lbs of pressure and ferncos will hold that pressure, I don't think they would take much more. You mentioned going from 6" to 4" , I hope the pipe is getting bigger towards the street/sewer main.If it's being reduced and it's leaking there try adapting from clay to pvc (with the fernco)and then using an eccentric 4 to 6 adaptor and then convert back to clay with another fernco. If you did everything right there should be no leaks.BTW we use gasket joint pvc pipe at work,if you use glue-joint make sure you have the right glue and primer.
But like Medmech said it should be no big deal, if it's leaking at the fernco then the sealing surface (probably on the clay) isn't clean or the clamp isn't tightening against the rubber/clay.If the clay pipe has a rough end it can be squared up with a crescent wrench sized to the pipe thickness and used to slowly 'nibble' away at the clay. Good luck

i understand what you recommended i think.

you didnt say why siliicone should not be used underground. or med tech may have been responding to that question with his comment about other materials deteriorating the fernco.

a fernco is one of those devices which is basically a rubber boot with two clamps, right? yea, i understand. they should not need anything else if the pipe being connected is solid and round.

so his leak must have been from a malformed piece of pipe ?

tom w

Kyle,
A few years ago, I was testing some sanitary on private property. I was to test the backfill, and, "oh yeah, while you're hear can you run the air test".
The Owner was on site, and had no idea of what we were doing but he wanted the air test at 50 psi. The contractor and I were able to talk him out of that--but, in my mind's eye, I can see the cleanouts being launched into low earth orbit if we had hit them with 50 psi.http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/images/smilies/smile.gif
:)

Maybe I should not be trying to connect the fernco (yes Tom, rubber sleeve with two clamps) to the flange end of the clay pipe... (which is rounded and slooping down toward the pipe and has ribs around the perimiter making a poor mating surface) ...but rather cut the clay pipe where it is smooth and straight and connect onto that. The pipe does go from 4" to 6" on the way to the main btw.

I had the same feeling when a city inspector wanted us to test the watermain at double its working pressure.City waterworks said it may spike up to over 200 psi ,but was usually in the 160-170 psi range (we were upstream of the PRV station). That meant testing at 400 psi :eek: , thankfully I negotiated down to 285 psi.
Tom, I was just trying to point out that it's not the stuff to use in that situation. You wouldn't put silicone on your radiator hose to seal it would you ;)
The pipe has to fit all the way into the fernco to get a proper seal, crank the clamp as tight as you can with a screw/nutdriver and it should be good to go :D

bingo. you need to break off the flange to get a proper fit on the fernco.

tom w

no not a radiator hose. and now that i understand all the facts i see your point.

thanks for the clarification.

and silicone wont deteriorate underground, particularly, it just isnt supposed to be needed.

tom w

I made two phone calls yesterday to get the phone number of the only plumber I know (fishing buddy in a group of 15) and he agrees with this idea as well. So it looks like it's a go. Probably excavate around the next good looking piece of 6" and use a diomond blade grinder to clean it up.

Thanks all.

note above the method of breaking the clay with a cresent wrench. nibbling away at it....

tom w