Agnostic vs. atheist - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

German Stare · #1 03-14-2007, 08:05 PM

Agnostics (like myself) believe that the ABSENCE of proof that god exist, is just the same as the PRESENSE of proof that god exist. Neither proof - for or against, gods existence exists.

Atheists believe that proof exists that god does not exist. That god could not exist.

Close in concept, but not the same.

kerry · #2 03-14-2007, 09:41 PM

When does lack of proof of something's existence justify the claim it doesn't exist. Very few people are agnostic on tiny invisible green men living under their toenails, they are happy to believe and act as if they don't exist, and even say they don't exist.

I noticed the other day that Ayaan Hirsi Ali called herself an atheist in an interview the other day.

A264172 · #3 03-14-2007, 10:38 PM

What's God?

suginami · #4 03-14-2007, 10:42 PM

For all practical purposes, even though the average agnostic claims he doesn't know if God exists or not, he acts as if there isn't one, so in the end they are basically living their life as an atheist.

AustinsCE · #5 03-14-2007, 10:44 PM

What if you don't really give a damn? Do you have to be an atheist or is there some way to avoid a label and obnoxious people telling you you're wrong?

log673 · #6 03-14-2007, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry edwards

When does lack of proof of something's existence justify the claim it doesn't exist. Very few people are agnostic on tiny invisible green men living under their toenails, they are happy to believe and act as if they don't exist, and even say they don't exist.

I noticed the other day that Ayaan Hirsi Ali called herself an atheist in an interview the other day.

It doesn't. Agnostics simply believe that there is no substantial evidence either way. It doesn't rule out the possibility that god may one day be proven to exist and vice versa.

djugurba · #7 03-14-2007, 11:03 PM

Agnostics (like yourself) aren't really agnostic at all. Agnosticism requires you to follow your reason as far as it takes you, and no further.

If you are convinced (hence your use of the word belief to frame your thinking) that no proof can/will be found either way, you are NOT agnostic. If you are open to the possibility that an argument or evidence would demonstrate one or the other conclusion, but you have yet to encounter it, you should do some reading, and you will not be agnostic for long.

As such, if you choose to take reason where it can take you, valuing an intellectually honest pursuit, you will end up atheist. There are several quite damning arguments against the existence of god.

A few good recent reads on the subject:

Sam Harris: The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation

Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion

Dawkins' book is an entertaining read for those genuinely curious about the subject, but does not allow wiggle room for people to feel his conclusions can sit side-by-side consistently with any sort of god belief. So, if you don't want to know why god almost certainly does not exist, skip this book.

It continues to boggle my mind how anyone, let alone an overwhelming majority of the world's population, can retain a belief in god. Of course, the world was flat up until 600 years ago, so I suppose that's progress. Shame, you'd have thought Jesus, Krishna, Muhammed, etc. would have known the world wasn't flat, what with the all-knowing and all...

A264172 · #8 03-14-2007, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djugurba

Agnostics (like yourself) aren't really agnostic at all. Agnosticism requires you to follow your reason as far as it takes you, and no further.

If you are convinced (hence your use of the word belief to frame your thinking) that no proof can/will be found either way, you are NOT agnostic. If you are open to the possibility that an argument or evidence would demonstrate one or the other conclusion, but you have yet to encounter it, you should do some reading, and you will not be agnostic for long.

As such, if you choose to take reason where it can take you, valuing an intellectually honest pursuit, you will end up atheist. There are several quite damning arguments against the existence of god.

A few good recent reads on the subject:

Sam Harris: The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation

Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion

Dawkins' book is an entertaining read for those genuinely curious about the subject, but does not allow wiggle room for people to feel his conclusions can sit side-by-side consistently with any sort of god belief. So, if you don't want to know why god almost certainly does not exist, skip this book.

It continues to boggle my mind how anyone, let alone an overwhelming majority of the world's population, can retain a belief in god. Of course, the world was flat up until 600 years ago, so I suppose that's progress. Shame, you'd have thought Jesus, Krishna, Muhammed, etc. would have known the world wasn't flat, what with the all-knowing and all...

Too bad your god is too weak to defend itself against an English Academic.......

welcome back

NKowi · #9 03-14-2007, 11:39 PM

I consider myself an agnostic, as I interpret the word, in my own simple terms, as not knowing whether or not God exists.

In that the Bible states "By grace you are saved, through faith ..." (or something very close to that - it's been a long time), and most Christians purport that without that faith one cannot have eternal life, then I submit that they themselves don't know that God exists - they simply have faith that he does. If they claim they actually know he exists (most do), then I further submit that, by definition, they don't have faith ... they have knowledge. And without faith, how can they be saved?

If, on the other hand, they don't claim to actually know of God's existence, relying only on faith, then they themselves are agnostic.

sfloriII · #10 03-15-2007, 12:28 AM

"If it weren't for God, there would be no atheists."

--GK Chesterton

#11 03-15-2007, 01:33 AM

BAVBMW · #12 03-15-2007, 01:46 AM

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

Credited, I believe to one Stephen Roberts.

Seems to sum it up nicely.

MV