Laminate flooring install
 

I found a decent looking laminate floor manufactured by DuPont (Real Touch Elite) for the kitchen in one of the rentals. Far more durable than linoleum or vinyl tile and not all that costly ($3.25 sq. ft.).

My question, for those who have installed these interlocking planks is as follows:

When dealing with a door jamb, if you cut the bottom of the door jamb and slip the panel beneath the jamb, it cannot be lifted to assist in the interlock.

If you don't cut the door jamb and keep the panel outside the jamb, you'll need a piece of trim in that location.........which is impossible due to the required closure of the door.

So.......any advice appreciated...........

Brian –
I’m thinking this (see pic) is the area you’re talking about. (?)

The normal procedure is to fit together at ~45 degrees and snap it down. That doesn’t mean that’s the only way it will lock together. Just like the ends - the sides can be locked together while laying flat. Just be very careful not to chip the edge of the piece you’re hitting. Start at one end of the long piece, and work it together from there. Don’t try to lock a whole long piece in all at once by hitting it. That wont happen.

I take it you have the tool (not the block) that you hit with a hammer to knock the pieces together with, right? I used the one that came with the install kit, the first floor I did. It sucked. I went to Lowes and bought a more triangular shaped one with much greater contact area for the flooring. Worth twice what I paid. Wonderful tool compared to the cheap 1.5” flat stock with 90s on the ends.

I suggest you lay down some scraps and practice first. A lot of the cheaper floorings have brittle locking tracks.

i.e. Start with the long sides going together at a slight angle with a gap at the sort locking end Hammer with the block until the long sides are locked. Then, with the 90 tool grab the opposite short end, and hammer the short locking ends together. (Hope that made some sense, kind-o hard to put into words).

Yep, that's the problem.........right in the photo.

I purchased the "install kit" from HD, but, it probably has a cheap 1.5" flat stock tool as you mentioned.

I don't see a problem in any area other than below those jambs.

Were you able to fit the panel beneath the jamb and force it into position with the Lowes tool and a hammer? You start on one corner and work it until it slowly moves into the desired position?

Yep, this is a cheap floor...........and the tongues are quite fragile.

Along the long side, you can rest the block (~2"x1"X10" plastic thing that came in the kit) on top of the locking track (press down hard as not to let it hop up and chip the lam.) and knock the long side in with it. Then to slide the piece to lock the short end, yes, use the tool with the bigger area and not the 1.5" cr-p tool that came in the kit. As you will quite possibly be installing the last piece of that run, you will more than likely have a cut end to hook and pull on. You may need to slide the tool in/out from the side if you're under the drywall. In the jam area, you don't have to have the tool dead center, just be careful how hard you hit it.

Also - With either/any 90 tool, it's a good idea to check it every now and then to assure it's still at 90 on both ends. I stand mine up and hammer the ends when needed. Otherwise, they will chip the contact edge for sure.
After about 40-50 smacks - the cheap tools are bending open pretty good.

I'll go out to the hangar and see if I can find the good tool and get you a pic.

First one I did (I've done about 3500 sq ft by now), was some cheap stuff from HD thata friend bought. Those brittle locks drove me nuts.:mad:

For another dollar a sq ft you probably can buy real prefinished wood, and often you can find it for less than that.

Then if it wears out you can refinish it.

I am a big fan of real wood. It takes a bit more to install though.

Tom W

Love the real stuff too, Tom.
But with kids - Nothing like bulletproof laminate.

Brian -
Here’s the tool to lay flooring with.
(got lucky - it was still in the shop by the house)

Made by Precision Components. Item # 196458. Called: Pull Bar Barreta.

1” on the hammer end. 3” on the working end. Has felt (more like Velcro pad) on the bottom so as not to mess up your lam, and it keeps the lam edge from contacting up in the bend. Never chipped a piece with this tool.

I got mine at Lowes, but I’d bet HD has them as well. Get one, and throw that kit tool away.

Thanks John.

Clearly, this is going to be quite a project. This is my first laminate floor and I see that it's no easy task.

Brian, Rub a bar of soap on the edge of the ones that are difficult to snap together due to being in tight spots. Makes it much easier.

Nothing beats the real thing though. To me, laminate feels like walking on a cheap counter top.

Thanks, I'll try that.

The laminate is far superior to linoleum or vinyl tile in the kitchen. In fact, it's superior to real wood in that location due to the lack of any care required in the future.

The design looks like ceramic tile and I'm quite optimistic as to it's longevity.........provided that it doesn't get flooded with water.

Brain, WVO (anyone else who cares to chime in as well);

Sounds like you guys have some experience in the click together laminate flooring. What brands did you look at when making a decision which to get? I like the idea of click together but the only ones here at the HD in town are the cheap photographed looking wood that seems to me like it would sound like a drum when walking upon. I like real wood but I'm not thrilled about the glue down aspect of the stuff I was looking at - concrete slab in the desert so no real moisture problems. Do they make a click together kind with real wood? Perhaps real wood on top and plywood or something similar on the bottom? I think I'd much rather click together than glue, plus there's the added aspect of the little kids which appear to be like roving jackhammers on walls and floors - they can't reach the ceiling yet.

BTW, good luck on your floor Brian.

Matt, there are all kinds of "engineered" floors today. I've seen some with actual wood veneers that you'd be hard pressed to tell that they were not solid. They are more stable than wood and they don't need to be finished after installation. Cost is about double the cheap stuff that I got from HD (about $6.50 or so), but, they are a fine looking floor.

Most of the floors that I've seen in that category are nail down or glue down. But, I do believe John has a very high end floor that clicks together.

Well, it sounds like I'm in for quite the experience with this one..............

I hope it works out for you.

Tom W

Don't do laminate. If you are going to spend the time to install a floor, do real wood or at the very least an engineered wood floor. The laminates do nothing for the resale of your house and may actually discourage a buyer from purchasing your house.

There are some snap together real wood flooring. However, I think Bamboo is probably the best value and most durable of the real products. Not to mention, bamboo is a renewable resource and grows like a weed. Make sure you like the cut of the bamboo flooring. I like the vertical cut but some like the horizontal cut.

If the basis for the discussion is linoleum, you might reconsider your position on that.;)

I just installed a beautiful wood laminate through about 80 percent of my house. I cut under the jambs with a jamb saw prior. I'd give it a 2/10 difficulty DIY scale.

Personally I found it to be a very easy process, although tedious, once you are down on your hands and knees for so many hours. I used the pull bar, and a block of wood. You will find little tricks that work well for you as you go. Make sure you leave space on the sides to allow for expansion.

The worst part about the job was pulling up the poorly laid, engineered wood, from the floor, then renting a floor scrapper to remove left over glue/chips of wood.

Here is what we bought.

YOurs actually looks like ceramic tile?

If so I withdraw my previous comment about real wood.

Just out of curiousity, why did you decide to go with this instead of real ceramic or liinoeum? The cost difference seems minor, but this probably will install quicker once you get going on it.

Tom W

I'd be interested in the high end click together. I've been looking at an engineered floor with plywood on the bottom and about 1/16" of hardwood on the top. It's glue down though and I'm really not looking forward to the glueing. Click together would be much more fun - I just don't know if the look or feel would be the same.

I needed something durable for the kitchen. This pattern has the look of ceramic tile to some degree.

Can't go with real ceramic due to the building structure. I don't trust the wood floor and I'm not about to reinforce it. Furthermore, the maintenance of the grout is a constant issue.

Could have went with linoleum, but, the surface hardness of this laminate is about 100X greater than the linoleum. If the tenants look at the linoleum sideways.........it'll dent or scratch. I do believe that this material will perform significantly better and might even last 15 years.

I really cannot complain about the linoleum, however.........it was installed in 1993.

As far as I know, the click together floors are all "floating". They have a soft backing material or an underlayment that allows them to move a bit. They do have an entirely different feel than the glued or nailed floors.

The floors that you observed are a perfect imitation of real wood without any of the problems that are associated with it. Some of them look stunning. I'm thinking of using them in a screen porch that I have, but, am unsure of how much they'll stand up to some possible water through the screens.

Not sure where you live to make that statement.
But it's obviously nowhere near where we live.

John, didn't you put in a very high end laminate that appears to be "wood" and clicks together?

I feel this real wood vs. laminate thing could go off like an OD on politics.:rolleyes:

As far as I’m concerned – Laminate is bulletproof and damn near maintenance free as compared to real wood.

As for cost – that’s for the person who’s paying for it to be concerned with.

To say one can get a real wood floor for the same or little more than a laminate floor is to me, not the way to look at it. You need to look at your needs and requirements of the floor itself. Traffic. Spills. Kids. Pets. What’s being tracked in onto it. And how much time/money/effort are you willing to spend to maintain it. Regardless of what you put down.

The best laminate I’ve found is: http://www.quick-step.com
It looks pretty near real, and is bulletproof (under normal use).
No maintenance required. For years.
Parts of ours are pushing 6 years old. They look as good as day one. And we're probably rougher on it than most. :)

Yes - http://www.quick-step.com
Awesome stuff. Very happy with it.

Thanks, WVO.

Looks like there's a dealer a few hours south of here. I might have a look and see what the Quick-step looks like up close. What kind of price range do they run?

You're probably right, I'm sure there are plenty of opinions on flooring. Bottom line is that it's your house and you should be happy with it. Or, in my case, my wife should be happy with it.:D

Well, of this WERE a political thread, it would be Bush's fault.

:)

Damn right !!

And let's remember - Never mix Laminate flooring with Pella windows.

:D

Laminates are very tough with regards to wear but, standing water is bad news. The edge will absorb moisture swelling the area.

Brian, To do it right you'll need to pull the trim. Plan ahead as to where you start. Toe space under cabinets makes for a difficult install.
I recently layed a laminate floor in my mom's kitchen. Cabinets on three walls with an island cab centered and a diagonal china cabinet on another wall corner.
Never again...

Since it a rental, what about using adhesive backed tiles?

http://www.armstrong.com/resflram/na/tile/en/us/

Keep spares (and tenants deposit) for repairs of damaged areas.

Laminates are not easily fixed when damaged.

I have laminate "terra cotta tile" in my kitchen and I love it! Clean w/water & white vinegar & mop. I've had it several years and wouldn't have anything else.

Remember, if you have the stove-tip hardware it has to be attached to a cabinet and not the flooring so the floor floats.

When laminate install s-cks big time....
 

Brian –
When you’re feeling like your door jams are being a PIA to lay lam under…..

Here’s one of the family rooms in our house. It has a brick fireplace, as you can see.
Getting down on the knees with a high-speed masonry wheel and a chisel to cut the bottom 5/8th-ish of the brick out so the laminate can run under it was a BEEEOOTCH.




(why yes that is one of a pair of very old Bose spkrs we use for the 7+sub surround sound mids ……it’s pretty much the kids and their friends room….so why give them the good stuff? ;) )

It's not an automatic deal, that's for sure. The first one I did, I didn't buy any of the tools. Miracle I pulled it off. Instead of the puller, for use when you get up against the wall, I used various crowbars, pushing against studs under the sheetrock to pop them in place.

Next time around, I bought all the tools. The black plastic (corian, I imagine) banging block with the handle is worth the investment. Much more durable than a block of wood and it transmits the force of the blow better.

SVO ta-go is correct in that you don't always have to go with the angled install -- just slip it in place and pound with resolution.

I forget the brand, but one of the HD brands has a roughly 1/8 inch thick of actual wood on top, rather than a photograph of wood. Universal might be the name of that one.

Like Tom, I'm not a fan of laminate floors, mostly because of their suscepibility to water damage. I'm about to install a solid 3/4 red oak floor in a rental apartment today but only in living room and bedroom.
In kitchens, I typically use VCT. It can easily last 30 yrs in a rental. Damaged tiles can be replaced and maintenance is minimal. It's also easy to install. I order the more expensive solid colors (not the usual flecked tiles) and use black and white checkerboard patterns angled from corner to corner. But there are lots of different solid color tiles available on special order. I think the special order tiles run between $.70 and $1 per tile.

I've planned it carefully. Base cabinets are all removed with the exception of the sink base. The 1/4" space around the perimeter, and in front of the sink base will all be filled with silicone caulk..........no water is getting under this floor from the edges.

My only concern is the two door frames...........got to get the laminate underneath and cannot lift it to engage...........

One thing that might work -- you might want to practice with some scraps first -- is to put a short piece in place just ahead of the jamb, then use a block to pound it length wise, so that it slides under the jamb. I've been able to move a couple of boards already in place a quarter inch or so for adjustment. I tried it once with 4 boards and no luck. So, I'm thinking a 12 " piece might slide fairly well.

Make sure you don't use stuff that has ANY MDF (medium density fiberboard) in it. That stuff gets wet and swells like a sponge. I don't want to insult your intelligence, but in doubt, rip open the end of the package and look at the ends of the boards.

The brand I used has no particle board. It didn't cost much more than the cheapo Pergo brand.

I think the 1/4" at the edge is for expansion and contraction, so caulking it with silicone might not be a good idea.

Tom W

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiibAjepLnY

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=laminate+flooring+door

Well, I practiced all right. Did two rows. What a PITA. The ends engage without any issue.........but, the sides won't go in without lifting the entire row........and then some of the previously engaged boards will disengage.

Took me three hours for the first two rows............including ripping and an irregular pattern for the door..........but.......this is going to take forever.:o

It is for expansion.........the silicone won't impede this process.

I demo'd the existing floor (carpet, pad, hardboard tile, and a couple of layers of linoleum) and laid about 100 sq ft of solid oak hardwood today. Na Na Na Nah. :D

That was probably easier than this stuff.

You're putting oak hardwood in the rentals??

I've got a softer wood in the living room, and the two bedrooms........don't know what it is.........and it takes a beating by the tenants............have to use wood filler on some spots to fix the gouges..........definitely not "hardwood"..........must be pine or a softer wood of some sort.

Yep. It's about the most durable, maintenance free floor I can get. $2.08 a sq ft for#1 at Home Depot. After I nail it down, I just sand out milling marks and chalk, but I don't sand the whole floor. I put one coat of stain and 3 of fast drying polyurethane. Tenants really go for hardwood floors, and it's very simple to add a little stain to cover any scratches or worn areas and a coat of poly between tenants (about a half hour's work) I've had one down for about 10yrs and I haven't had to do anything to it yet. Nobody has ever noticed that the floor was not sanded after installation.

Ivory bar soap, then they will latch together much easier.

I'd pull the door trim, saw the thickness of the laminate off and re-install.

Laminate floor dust is about as toxic as MDF dust. I cut outside, blow the edge groove clean, wipe the dust from the surface then go inside to install.

How are the knees?:D

I was thinking about this a bit more. Wouldn't it make more sense to interlock a full row on the ends and then install the full row on the side? The row tries to back out every time a panel is installed anyway..........so, why bother?

All the door trim is removed. I'll cut the door jambs on the two doors that I have.

That dust is killing me...........I still feel it four hours later and I only cut six panels.:eek: It seems to go everywhere.........including my lungs. I'm taking the table saw outside..........for sure!

Only did two rows..........so, the knees are not killing me yet.........but spent a couple of hours sanding the hardwood floors with a small hand sander...........that wasn't much fun.

You can get #1 for $2.08? That's amazing. I've got to check that out.

I do like this laminate for the kitchen, however...........if I ever get it fully installed.:o

Just dont get it wet....................

I have currently about fifteen residential units that I rent to upper scale folks. Mostly singles and a few couples. Over half have hardwood on the floors. Some in my big building have it in the kitchens because it was there and we just refinished it, maple, from 1913. It is full of imperfections from nearly a hundred years of use and abuse but still looks very good.

I originally was going to put ceramic in the kitchens but decided to go with the wood and see how it went. after six years I cannot think of anyplaces that have had to be even touched up yet.

There are some places in my office where the chairs have worn all the finish off.

We used three coats or oil based polyurethane in most of them. Professional refinishers did it all with the walk behind sanders. Due to all the small nails from underlayment they used a lot of paper which I ended up paying them extra for.

Folks really like the wood.

On the fourth floor it is all terrazo. That is pretty trouble free too. It had a lot of small damaged areas which we patched with bondo, sanded smooth and sealed with terrazo sealer. That is working out well too.

If anybody wants to look, there are a lot of pictures on my picturetrail websites. username ctwalgamuth, and tomwa, iirc. Let me know if those don't work and I will check and correct.

picturetrail.com

Tom W

I was curious about this as well.

So, I took a scrap piece and dropped it in the sink..........filled with water........and let it sit there for 90 minutes. Removed it and it's just as solid as when it went in the drink. This material is solid and well compacted!

The job is going well. Getting an entire row connected on the ends and then installing the row on the sides is much easier than doing it by individual panels...........which disengage the entire row anyway.

I didn't explain my idea very well. I meant not to slide the piece sideways under the jamb and then make the long joint, but to attach a piece to the existing body of work, the length wise joint, and then tap it 10 or 12 inches longitudinally, whatever is needed so that it slides under the jamb already firmly set in place. If you need to cut a shorter piece in order to make that work, you might have to go with one joint (endo) not having a tongue or a groove (then you'd have to cut off the tongue -- ouch!) to engage. Wouldn't be a big problem just once, I don't think.

Well, I finished the job. Since I had two doorways in the same plane, it was virtually impossible to do the "slide" along the long joint. I would have needed to pound the piece into the long joint without the benefit of a 15° lift. Probably would not happen. So, I pulled three of the four jambs..........took about one minute per jamb since the trim was already removed. Made the job an easy deal to finish.

This is one durable floor.............I don't think water will bother it one iota. I'll caulk the edges just for safety, but, one hour in the sink did nothing to the panel.

I thought about just removing the jambs but that can be a pain if the casing is firmly nailed into them. Good call, it seems like more work at first glance but it's the easiest route in many ways.

I assume you used a brand with no MDF -- hence the good water test results.

What brand did you use? I was at HD today and the brand I like is indeed "Universal." Real wood, all the way through.

If you want to go extra high quality someday, try Junkers (I think that's the spelling, pronounced Yonkers -- German). It's solid, not laminate, but it's pre-finished and snap together like the HD stuff. The pieces have two rows in each section instead of three.