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Botnst 02-10-2008 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichC (Post 1758935)
1. Name one war where there was only casualties on one side.

2. Nobody wins.
There is only more dead people on one side than the other.

3. The only true death is in principals.
At what expense do you want to win ?

4. Join the military, go help them escallate the war.
I think your chances of seeing your next birthday will be decreased.
1. Where did that come from?

2. Bovine poopie. Read history.

3. More bovine poopie. Read more history.

4. Been there, done that, got the DD214.

RichC 02-10-2008 04:44 PM
.

There is no such thing as winning a war.

The only way I see to win a war is if no one has to die.
On either side.

But all wars have resulted in lots and lots of dead people.
On both sides.

And someone has had to give in to the others ideas.
Someone has to give in on their principals.
Because they have had enough people die.

Nobody wins.
Somebody just gets to force their principals on someone else.

Does might make right ?

Medmech 02-10-2008 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aklim (Post 1758921)
Question, what did we get out of Bosnia? What is the strategic value? I haven't read up much on it so I'm not sure but I don't see very much value in what we did. Not saying there isn't, just that I didn't see it. I suppose if I went back and read it up, it might make sense but do you have the cliff notes?
You don't always go war to get something out of it.

aklim 02-10-2008 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichC (Post 1758933)
You still do not see the point. If each side continues to escalate violence, neither side will win.

Everybody dies.

The only way to win is not to play.
The point is this. Last man standing wins.

Not necessarily. People die. If you move fast enough, you might win it. Of course, if you sit and lollygag while debating morality, you might not.

Not always do you get a choice

aklim 02-10-2008 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichC (Post 1758935)
Nobody wins. There is only more dead people on one side than the other.

At what expense do you want to win ?
And the side with the least dead people win.

Any expense. What is the cost of losing?

aklim 02-10-2008 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichC (Post 1759024)
Does might make right ?
If you die, it doesn't matter. When you have eliminated the other side, you win. Then you can analyze that statement. Otherwise, it won't matter, will it?

Botnst 02-10-2008 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichC (Post 1759024)
.

There is no such thing as winning a war. ...
Speak German?

aklim 02-10-2008 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howitzer (Post 1759027)
You don't always go war to get something out of it.
Of course we do. We don't say it out loud but we do. NILIF. There is always a string attached no matter what is said.

Medmech 02-10-2008 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aklim (Post 1759132)
Of course we do. We don't say it out loud but we do. NILIF. There is always a string attached no matter what is said.
Show me the strings with Bosnia, Somalia, Ethiopia, Sierra Leone, Haiti, Macedonia, Zaire...recent action off the top of my head.

Edit: Liberia

cmac2012 02-10-2008 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst (Post 1758692)
I didn't ask about all bombs dropped everywhere in Vietnam, I asked about McCain's missions. McCain was following orders to bomb specific targets. If he knowingly bombed non-military targets then he was a war war criminal.

If you want to bring charges against the war itself then you have to bring charges at the appropriate level -- Johnson, MacNamara, & Congress. And the people who elected them, of course.
Not sure we're going to know at this late date what McCain dropped bombs on. What you say makes eminent sense, to us anyway, but if I were a N. Vietnamese and I captured a pilot that had been bombing anything in my country, I'd be inclined to hold him responsible.

That stuff is not something I want to lightly dismiss (the conditions that Dieter Dengler endured were no picnic either) but the likelihood that one will get severely beaten and abused for bombing someone is a large part of why we refrain from it in the world, as much as possible.

It's just a bid odd that a good portion of Americans get a kick out of Jack Bauer putting the hurt on some miscreant about to do damage to our country and then get incensed at some North Vietnamese guy trying to get info out of someone like McCain.

We think we're the good guys? EVERYBODY thinks they're the good guys.

Botnst 02-10-2008 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 1759186)

1. ... if I were a N. Vietnamese and I captured a pilot that had been bombing anything in my country, I'd be inclined to hold him responsible.

2. ... the likelihood that one will get severely beaten and abused for bombing someone is a large part of why we refrain from it in the world, as much as possible.

3. It's just a bid odd that a good portion of Americans get a kick out of Jack Bauer putting the hurt on some miscreant about to do damage to our country and then get incensed at some North Vietnamese guy trying to get info out of someone like McCain.

4. We think we're the good guys? ....
1. I doubt it.

2. I doubt that concern has much influence over foreign policy.

3. Whatever.

4. No question.

cmac2012 02-10-2008 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst (Post 1759190)
1. I doubt it.

2. I doubt that concern has much influence over foreign policy.

3. Whatever.

4. No question.
Don't look now but we have more people in jail, per capita and total if I'm not mistaken, than any other country in the world. And you seem to think that Americans operating abroad are going to automatically be the best the world has to offer.

People in Nigeria around the oil fields see very little benefit from the pollution, reduced food availability while we in the US and other "modern" nations use large amounts of that oil for recreation, and in the US, even larger amounts to run the most inefficient economy in the world.

About 40% of our military budget is devoted to safeguarding the oil trade that keeps those inefficient practices from ruining us.

We do have some components of high civilization here. We're also some of the biggest damn fools on the planet. Your button bursting pride, no, the phenomenon in general is a big part of what is keeping us stupid.

Botnst 02-10-2008 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 1759202)
1. Don't look now but we have more people in jail, per capita and total if I'm not mistaken, than any other country in the world. And you seem to think that Americans operating abroad are going to automatically be the best the world has to offer.

2. People in Nigeria around the oil fields see very little benefit from the pollution, reduced food availability while we in the US and other "modern" nations use large amounts of that oil for recreation, and in the US, even larger amounts to run the most inefficient economy in the world.

3. About 40% of our military budget is devoted to safeguarding the oil trade that keeps those inefficient practices from ruining us.

4. We do have some components of high civilization here. We're also some of the biggest damn fools on the planet. Your button bursting pride, no, the phenomenon in general is a big part of what is keeping us stupid.
1. Wish we could stop arresting drug users, myself. That would cut down on the folks in jail. So far only Ron Paul has called for a rational change in that particular policy. The Demopublicans are either freaking stupid or cowards on that issue.

2. What goes on in Nigeria stays in Nigeria. Too bad they can't get their ***** together.

3. Good. we need it.

4. No question about damned fools. It's agreeing on who they are where we may find differences. You sanctimonious embrace of blame becomes you.

Hatterasguy 02-10-2008 10:39 PM
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

John Stuart Mill

RichC 02-11-2008 12:36 AM
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.
The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing / everything is worth war is much worse.
The person who has nothing / everything for which he is willing to fight, nothing / everything which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

John Stuart Mill / RichC


Amazing how transposing one word can make such a difference.


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