The winner defines war crime. That's why Vietnam hasn't prosecuted guards that tortured folks like Jon McCain.

And who has prosecuted John McCain for bombing, from a high speed jet no less, a people, a nation, who never harmed or threatened him?

We would sit still for such a thing? Or be gentle with the perpetrator?

I think not.

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What were McCain's targets? If they were legit military targets then there is no Geneva Conventions beef.

Considering the nature of the war, how would you say whether the target was legit? If they hid an artillery piece in a village, would that be a legit target? If they used a village as a base, would that village be a legit target?

Besides, WGAS about that GC rag. Apparently the other side didn't. So why should we care about it?

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There was a guest editorial in this mornings paper. It said the waterboarding has been thought to be torture by every previous US administration.

That seems to be proof enough to me.

This administration has proven itself over and over to believe that it is above the law.

Tom W

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Was every previous US Administration dealing with the same issues that this one is? Maybe they had the luxury of being nice because they weren't under fire. Besides, why do we care about those people? They are the enemy. They have and will do worse to us. Nothing we do or won't do will change that.

That's proof? Or is it your justification?

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It's spelled-out in the Geneva Conventions, of which we are signatories. Essentially, non-military targets are out. There are exceptions to that.

OK. What do you see as the aim of the GC then? What is it trying to achieve?

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It's a codification of the rules of chivalry as applied to war between states. It has a definite western European bias due to a shared common origin of culture, religion and philosophy. It has been successfully imposed on conquered people around the world, with some exceptions.

B

Word I've come across many times is that many targets that we bombed were not legitimate military targets. Ever seen the footage of hamlets being napalmed, one after the other? It's sorta (in)famous, was at the beginning of Herzog's "Rescue Dawn," a good movie if you've not seen it. His earlier film about the same guy, a docu., "Little Dieter Needs to Fly, " (IIRC) was also good.

I like McCain in many ways but I think he was and is mistaken about Vietnam. Dieter Dangler (sp) forgave his captors completely. McCain said he never will.

Part of the point with my post about war crimes trials, or lack of them, is that Vietnam didn't really win the war in any classical sense. They did not divide up American territory or booty, save that which was abandoned in country. They had no ability to prosecute war criminals, or those they thought to be same. They did manage to survive a massive, unprovoked attack by the largest military in history to that point.

As for legitimate military targets, there were some of those in Vietnam? A country we lied our way into fighting in an undeclared war? A country that couldn't have harmed us if they wanted to which they didn't?

A war crime from start to finish.

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I didn't ask about all bombs dropped everywhere in Vietnam, I asked about McCain's missions. McCain was following orders to bomb specific targets. If he knowingly bombed non-military targets then he was a war war criminal.

If you want to bring charges against the war itself then you have to bring charges at the appropriate level -- Johnson, MacNamara, & Congress. And the people who elected them, of course.

These questions are ponderable but never can be conclusively answered.

I like to try to find understanding of the big picture. I also like to try to think what folks were thinking in that village in Vietnam as our jets swooped in and dropped death and destruction.

To folks with no stake in the discussion it must look something like Italy's invasion of Ethiopia does to us. Planes dropping bombs on spear wielding warriors with shields and loincloths.

One of my favorite movies is "The Wind and the Lion". It stars Sean Connery and Candice Bergen. It is based on actual events (in a hollywood way I am sure) that occurred in Morrocco during TR's administration. It is an interesting contrast in cultural values. There is a place in which the Ratsuli (The berber chief played by Connery) discusses European military methods. In describing the Machine Gun he said "There is no honor in having a gun that discharges bullets promiscuously....now swords, there is honor in swords".

I may have the quote wrong but the point is that having technical superiority in armament certainly makes the other side feel that you are fighting unfairly. If the other side feels that guns that discharge promiscuously or planes that drop napalm are unfair then they may well decide that chopping off heads is fair in comparison.

In McCains case we had jet fighters and helicopters and they had ak 47s and land mines. If one of our pilots was shot down they had a tendency to treat them as if they were war criminals, because in their minds that was what they were.

Who is to say they are wrong?

Tom W

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So maybe we should just dispense with the GC rag we signed and just say "No Holds Barred". What is it you suggest? Swords at dawn?

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The Geneva Conventions and due process.

B

Not sure we're going to know at this late date what McCain dropped bombs on. What you say makes eminent sense, to us anyway, but if I were a N. Vietnamese and I captured a pilot that had been bombing anything in my country, I'd be inclined to hold him responsible.

That stuff is not something I want to lightly dismiss (the conditions that Dieter Dengler endured were no picnic either) but the likelihood that one will get severely beaten and abused for bombing someone is a large part of why we refrain from it in the world, as much as possible.

It's just a bid odd that a good portion of Americans get a kick out of Jack Bauer putting the hurt on some miscreant about to do damage to our country and then get incensed at some North Vietnamese guy trying to get info out of someone like McCain.

We think we're the good guys? EVERYBODY thinks they're the good guys.

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