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  #1  
Old 04-30-2008, 12:54 AM
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New ethanol 10% blend:mpg loss???

My local Shell station started selling this newfangled 10% ethanol blend since the last time I filled up my 2002 Cadillac. I went on a 70 mile highway trip and noticed a slight power loss and slight detonation, plus a huge(for this car) mpg loss. I used to get 25-26 mpg on the highway, now it's 21.5 mpg.

I see the future of the automobile, and will are all going to be driving glorified golfcarts(hybrids) in the future.

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  #2  
Old 04-30-2008, 01:36 AM
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You will lose a bit of gas mileage, though usually not more than 1 or 2 mpg. I have never heard of ethanol causing detonation though, it usually prevents detonation.
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Old 04-30-2008, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Kraft View Post
My local Shell station started selling this newfangled 10% ethanol blend since the last time I filled up my 2002 Cadillac. I went on a 70 mile highway trip and noticed a slight power loss and slight detonation, plus a huge(for this car) mpg loss. I used to get 25-26 mpg on the highway, now it's 21.5 mpg.

I see the future of the automobile, and will are all going to be driving glorified golfcarts(hybrids) in the future.
That sounds about right. CT started blending Ethanol (10%) to replace MBTE(?) for their "winter" gasoline. The mileage drop in my wife's Odyssey is noticible, easily 10%. I wonder if that Ethanol blend is here to stay for emissions reasons?

On a side note, GM makes a big deal about their E85 capatible vehicles by throwing FlexFuel badges on them. We've got a 2004 Dodge Grand Caravan for a run around vehicle here at work. Inside the fuel door is a sticker indicating that E85 can be used with very little fanfare.
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Old 04-30-2008, 08:41 AM
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I noticed one of those "Flex Fuel" badges on a car yesterday. I buy Exxon gas most of the time. I think it is about 10% Ethanol. I never really thought about it. My mileage is not as good as I think it should be. Maybe that's the reason.

Well, apparently now people are starving in the Third World so that we can have fuel for our cars . . . What a crazy world this is!
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  #5  
Old 04-30-2008, 09:40 AM
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Farm Aid.

We also now have E10 all year. My MPG goes down
3-5mpg with it. I thought alcohol would raise octane?
Don't engines made for alcohol have higher compression?
Tempted to use a lower grade gas to make up the mpg loss.

@##$% welfare farming, special interests!
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Old 04-30-2008, 12:04 PM
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Gee, this makes sense. Lets blend in a corn-based product that costs more in energy than it can save AND it takes more of it and the petrol that it is blended with to go the same distance.
Seems like BIG CORN has a better lobby than big oil.
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  #7  
Old 04-30-2008, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by 732002 View Post
We also now have E10 all year. My MPG goes down
3-5mpg with it. I thought alcohol would raise octane?
Don't engines made for alcohol have higher compression?
Tempted to use a lower grade gas to make up the mpg loss.

@##$% welfare farming, special interests!
I don't think they have higher compression. What happens when you DON'T have E85? It will detonate like there is no tomorrow.

I had a flex fuel vehicle once. In order to put a supercharger on it, I only needed a special program and a supercharger. However, if it wasn't flex fuel, you would need injectors. Why? Because FF has bigger injectors to make up for the lack of power. FF also has a sensor in the tank to detect E85 and then it can advance the timing and pulse width.
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  #8  
Old 04-30-2008, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by aklim View Post
I don't think they have higher compression. What happens when you DON'T have E85? It will detonate like there is no tomorrow.

I had a flex fuel vehicle once. In order to put a supercharger on it, I only needed a special program and a supercharger. However, if it wasn't flex fuel, you would need injectors. Why? Because FF has bigger injectors to make up for the lack of power. FF also has a sensor in the tank to detect E85 and then it can advance the timing and pulse width.
I sure as hell don't know the intricacies, but do you think with our Caravan it's a simple as just pumping E85 into it? (Not that I'd want to.) I was surprised to see that logo inside the gas door. Is there something different about the GM engines that required more engineering in order to put the fancy FF badges on?
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  #9  
Old 04-30-2008, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SwampYankee View Post
I sure as hell don't know the intricacies, but do you think with our Caravan it's a simple as just pumping E85 into it? (Not that I'd want to.) I was surprised to see that logo inside the gas door. Is there something different about the GM engines that required more engineering in order to put the fancy FF badges on?
I know in Ford and GM they had a sensor in the tank. When it discovered E85 it would increase pulse width and timing. In your case, I can't see why it would be different, can you? I know it had ethanol resistant injectors and they were larger. 43pph vs the stock 26 pph, IIRC. That is why if you went with the supercharger, you would not need to run bigger injectors and fuel pumps. HOWEVER, that meant you couldn't ever run E85 if you chose since you are maxing out the pump and injectors, etc, etc.

In any case, I would caution against it. I ran it in my truck and the E85 made sucky power and mileage. Not worth it, IMO.
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  #10  
Old 04-30-2008, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by aklim View Post
I don't think they have higher compression. What happens when you DON'T have E85? It will detonate like there is no tomorrow.

I had a flex fuel vehicle once. In order to put a supercharger on it, I only needed a special program and a supercharger. However, if it wasn't flex fuel, you would need injectors. Why? Because FF has bigger injectors to make up for the lack of power. FF also has a sensor in the tank to detect E85 and then it can advance the timing and pulse width.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2690341.html?page=2
The performance of E85 vehicles is potentially higher than that of gasoline vehicles because E85's high octane rating allows a much higher compression ratio, which translates into higher thermodynamic efficiency. However, FFVs that retain the capacity to run on gasoline alone can't really take advantage of this octane boost since they also need to be able to run on pump-grade gasoline.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

With turbo or supercharger more boost pressure can be used with E85.
More boost is like higher compression in a NA engine.

E85 also needs to run richer than gas, thus the poor mpg
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  #11  
Old 04-30-2008, 03:11 PM
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E10 was introduced about 1-2 years ago. You have been using it all along, just some stations are lazy about putting the sticker on the pump.

Yep it does suck, you cannot store it for more than 3-4 months.
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Old 04-30-2008, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MS Fowler View Post
Gee, this makes sense. Lets blend in a corn-based product that costs more in energy than it can save AND it takes more of it and the petrol that it is blended with to go the same distance.
Seems like BIG CORN has a better lobby than big oil.

That's gubment for ya...Side note: went to Philly this morning for a seni annual doctor appointment. about 230 miles RT. Started the morning with about 3/4 tank. Buurned it down to about 1/4. Gassed up when I got back @ 3.749 here for premuium. The car took $50.00 (for 13.33) gallons and hadn't topped out.

So figure I burned 40.00 in gas, 3 bucks for the bridge toll and 4.00 to park. Almost 50.00 to go see a doctor. Two and a half times the copay of 20.00.

First time I have ever spent 50.00 in gas for a car...(and more to come....). And Jersey has been using blended fuel for many years. I used to notice poor feul economy only in winter. Now it's an all year round proposition I guess.

The 124 has what, a 16 or 18 gal tank? 18x4.00=72.00

BOHICA!!!!
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  #13  
Old 04-30-2008, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Hatterasguy View Post
E10 was introduced about 1-2 years ago. You have been using it all along, just some stations are lazy about putting the sticker on the pump.

Yep it does suck, you cannot store it for more than 3-4 months.
E10 or 10% ethanol was is some gasoline way back in the early 80's, maybe the late 70's in some areas. Still, 100% gasoline was available during that time. I agree it reduces mpg. It should not harm regular car compnents. But E85 I think needs more corrosion resistant components.
Tom
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  #14  
Old 04-30-2008, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Kraft View Post
My local Shell station started selling this newfangled 10% ethanol blend since the last time I filled up my 2002 Cadillac. I went on a 70 mile highway trip and noticed a slight power loss and slight detonation, plus a huge(for this car) mpg loss. I used to get 25-26 mpg on the highway, now it's 21.5 mpg.

I see the future of the automobile, and will are all going to be driving glorified golfcarts(hybrids) in the future.
My Sentra use to get 33 MPG but now I get 23 at best. NY has had Ethenol for a while now and most people dont seem to care. This stuff makes corn expencive and may be starving some.
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  #15  
Old 04-30-2008, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 75Sv1 View Post
I agree it reduces mpg. It should not harm regular car compnents.

But E85 I think needs more corrosion resistant components.
But it harms my wallet

Yes it does. Hence you cannot switch injectors from E85 cars to non. Totally different.

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