My point is that there are many who prefer non-capital punishment simply because they want to sleep better at night in case they made an "Oops". Either way, you have taken something that you can NEVER replace. However, throwing the person in prison is more soothing since, as you have so noted, we can placate them with a few coins.

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Isn't "the point" more along the lines that executing one innocent is an extremely high price to pay for the alleged deterent factor of captial punishment or the benefit of "zero recidivism" advocated by some of its proponents?

If you view "justice" as vengance based, then captial punishment for murder is a fairly simple 1:1 equation. Clearly, science can establish that one person is dead, but the issue is whether our system of justice has advanced to the point where the guilt or innocence of the accused, the next potentially dead person, is established to the same degree of certainty.

As for "placating" someone by paying retribution, until you or anyone else comes forward with a better system, then it's as good as we've got.

That's a valid point, MTI. In statistics it's called Type I and Type II errors.

Type I is accepting a null proposition that is false, believing that it is true (computationally derived).

Type II is rejecting a null proposition that is true, believing that it is false.

Both errors have probabilities assigned to them and one can accept a greater or lesser probability of one in regards to the other, knowing the other will become increasingly important.

For example, in some cases we might accept an increased likelihood of a Type II error in order to increase the odds of not making a Type I. This is what (I think) civil law does by accepting a preponderance of evidence rather than the higher standard of criminal court. Civil court is less concerned with injustice against the defendant than with justice for the plaintiff (right?). The reverse is the case in criminal court. Not sure about this, it's from ancient memory.

My beef with capital punishment is less to do with making errors and more to do with the state killing it's citizens. That's a hell of a lot of power to invest in the hands of an institution that has, over the time of human history, a rather poor record of self-restraint. I'd rather the state not be so empowered.

OTOH, there are some folks who just need killing, like Dahlmer, John Wayne Gacey or Tim McVeigh. I hate mob justice or vendetta even more than I hate state killing. But in the cases of people like them, burn the bastards legally rather than incarceration or mob justice.

I dunno, it's not an easy problem.

B

This is much better.

Type I error
Type I error, also known as an "error of the first kind", an α error, or a "false positive": the error of rejecting a null hypothesis when it is actually true. Plainly speaking, it occurs when we are observing a difference when in truth there is none.
A false positive normally means that a test claims something to be positive, when that is not the case. For example, a pregnancy test with a positive result (indicating that the woman taking the test is pregnant) has produced a false positive in the case where the woman is not pregnant.


Type II error
Type II error, also known as an "error of the second kind", a β error, or a "false negative": the error of failing to reject a null hypothesis when the alternative hypothesis is the true state of nature. In other words, this is the error of failing to observe a difference when in truth there is one. This type of error can only occur when the statistician fails to reject the null hypothesis. In the example of a pregnancy test, a type II error occurs if the test reports false when the woman is, in fact, pregnant.
See Various proposals for further extension, below, for additional terminology.

How many people have been in prison that are proven to be innocent? Again, you can't take that back. That is whatever time they served that they will never get back. As I said, the comforting part is that people can feel that because he has got the rest of his life ahead of him, it's all good. Like I said, something to help them sleep at night if a mistake was made. As to the deterrent factor, it seems to have worked pretty well when the punishment is swift and certain.

Yes it is as good as we've got. Still, it isn't good enough, is it?

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I wonder if he was a suicide bomber in training before going to Gitmo. At least one thing is for sure. Detain enough people, eventually you'll probably detain one of the ones you're looking for.




I agree wholeheartedly with the first part, and disagree with the second. Vendetta killing is ~fine with me for a heinous crime. Kill my wife, I kill you. Personal revenge is what went around coming around. He who is wronged has the justification for action.

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When you say "justification" is that to be taken in the same way as "right?"

So, if you smite me, do I have the justification to disembowl your entire family? Or is there some kind of limit?

Of course, then your kin will have the justification to come after the next generation of my kin.

I can agree with that! And I think that what is even more atrocious is spending large sums of money to keep people alive forever in prison because that takes up to much in the way of resources!

However, with our knowledge of DNA chain linking the victim to the perpotraitor and how useful a tool this has proven to be, one cannot use the same old argument from the past to justify the expense of dragging justice out forever inflicting the massive cost onto the taxpayers saying "what if we send the wrong man to prison" like previous posters have said. This has largely been removed from the equation because of the advancement of science.

I'm a firm believer in the death penalty and will lobby for whatever we can do to make it faster and streamline the process to be more efficient!

Each point you have tried to make has been properly addressed. My answers are in parentheses!

Do you mean right as in moral right or legal right? Moral right, I can't really evaluate that. Legal right, no.

I'm not evaluating the extremity of action. I'm saying the government is not the one with cause to kill a murderer. Obviously it would not be an appropriate response to attack my family if I slap you, but your neighbor doesn't really have any justification to step in and slap me back.

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You overstate the importance of DNA in the criminal justice system, but even if science had removed uncertainty from the determination of guilt or innocence, the system still has problems determining which cases deserve life in prison versus capital punishment. That part of the system is broken, beyond repair IMHO.Why? What do you hope to accomplish by killing people? Revenge is the only reason I can see for the death penalty and that's a poor reason if you ask me.

Personal revenge is what runs amok in clan/tribal societies. Some cultures it has become so pervasive that they go into decline. Like the border tribes living along the mountainous border of Pakistan & Afghanistan.

Give them a taste of their OWN kind of "SHARIA" law applied to THEM:

They are TERRORISTS that got caught. Give them a taste of their own medicine. IT IS THE ONLY LANGUAGE THEY UNDERSTAND.

So, I think they should throw a bucket of hydrochloric acid in their eyes, and cut their hands off, and tattoo a huge red "G" on their foreheads, cut off their balls and mail them to their families (as the Russians were said to have done do with GREAT SUCCESS with some troublesome clerics in Afghanistan!!) and then mail them to their families) and THEN release them.

A bit severe but the message would surely work. This is not like Auschwitz, this is a just a way to send a message in a language that they would understand.

They won't be able to pull any more of their crap and mischief AGAIN if you do THAT to them.

What about their "human rights"? F**k those, they gave them up when they committed terrorist acts.

That would be my solution to this problem. And I bet it would work.

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So is tossing them in jail or do you believe that they are really being rehabilitated for the most part. What is so wrong with revenge as you put it? Do you think we abide by the laws because we want to or because we fear some sort of revenge? If you believe the former, do you think that if we have a "law free holiday" for a few months, things will remain the same?

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Some prisoners get rehabilitated. Most seem to go the other way. I just don't want my government killing people, except when necessary to defend us.I'm not sure what you mean by "as you put it". The death penalty as administered in this country does not deter others from murdering. My guess, and there is some evidence to support it, is that the death penalty encourages unlawful killing, but I could never prove that.

So, it appears that revenge is the main goal served by capital punishment. To me, that "benefit" isn't worth the cost.Of course not.